mult-t-lock picking

[femurat]

If somebody can pick the lock in front of me I'd let them keep it.

Let me put the challenge this way: if somebody can pick the lock in front of you, you'll send a free lock to every 101's member
Are you still in?

By the way, I really trust your company, in fact I recently ordered one of your locks to improve my skills.
BUT I think that nothing is impossible... as squelchtone said "Welcome to lockpicking101.com, where we pretty much do the impossible on a regular basis".

Cheers

[FrenchKey]

I'm not an expert in bumpkey, neither in Mul-T-lock, but what about a modified bumpkey, with a continuous groove where the passive pins are ?
They will never be bumped, and then never prevent the plug to turn, do they ?

[locfoc]

I don't think that was my company you ordered it from because I don't have any orders to ship anything anywhere. But I still don't think anybody can consistently pick a mul-t-lock open. I'm not saying it's not possible if you try for maybe 60+ hours and you only get it open once, what I'm saying is in any realistic amount of time it won't open consistently. Which means you can't pick it open.

[JK_the_CJer]

So where is the line that you will allow someone to say "I can pick Mul-t-Lock"?
If someone can open them consistently in 50 hours each? how about 10 hours? an hour? What if they open 10 in a row at 30 minutes each but can't get the last one open? Are you considering the picking meaningless if they've had prior practice on that locks? What if they have the key for reference? Does it only count if its mounted (vs in-hand)? What if the bitting looks easy?

I'm just making a point that being able to say "I can pick X" is a very personal thing in my opinion. There is a gradient of situational difficulty, consistency, and speed that has no definite sticking point. I think it takes some very extreme circumstances to justify a statement like "you can't pick that", "no one can pick that", or worse yet "you'll never pick that". Right now there are precisely two mechanical locks that I would even consider using this sort of language in reference to: Abloy Protec and Evva MCS...and the former is getting harder to say that about. Either way, I can guarantee the new MTLs (with the possible exception of the MT5) have been picked. Whether or not there is an MTL prodigy out there that can fly through them is unknown at the moment but its not unlikely.

[5thcorps]

Amen JK nothing with locks is impossible to a determined set of hands

[locfoc]

you are just running off on a random tangent, and someone has agreed with it. That doesn't mean you made a valid point to disprove what I said.

The only way to disprove me is to pick a lock I pin, while you are standing in front of me. You can bring every pick in the world and I guarantee it will not open. I'll give you 20 minutes, which is more then enough time to make a realistic claim of the lock being pickable. All of the video's online have the locks picked in less then 5 minutes, so if it's real then you should be able to pick it four times with in the amount of time I'm giving you.

If you can open it with in 20 minutes, I'll give you 10 mtl kik cylinders and you can ship them to your buddies. thats a $1,000 bet. What are you going to give me when you fail? You can't just lie about being able to do something and not put your money where your mouth is. What do I get when you can't open the lock? something worth $1,000 ?
Tell you what, if you can't open it, I get to keep all of your picks that you have with you.

So now it's up to you to consider, do you bring your entire set and hope you can open the lock? or do you bring crappy ones with a chance of fail because you know you will be handing me your picks when you leave.

I hope you can practice picking like a champ, this lock will have full stacks of serrated / mushroomed / spooled, with side pins and back pins in place, randomly placed ones.

Like I said, I know you can't do it, and I know the challenge ends here because you won't put your picksets up in the bet.

[JK_the_CJer]

I'm not sure when this conversation became a "challenge" of some sort, but I guess that's cool. As for making bets and such, I'm not really that sort of guy but do love a good challenge. Also, I'm not much of a Mul-t-Lock guru (though I did pick a Classic) and never claimed to be. I just think this idea that MTL cannot be picked is pretty laughable. You threw Marc's name out there earlier; I seem to recall him also saying that Mul-t-Lock doesn't even deserve its UL437 cert. Now I wouldn't mind hanging out with someone as familiar with MTL as yourself (even if a bit cocky) but my travel options are quite limited at the moment (unless you happen to live near Fort Jackson, SC).

Also, I think the point I made was pretty relevant; you're welcome to go on a rant about locksport folks being overly optimistic if you like. Your devotion to these locks and unswerving faith in their security is sort of inspiring me to start practicing them. The knowledge that there are likely more locksmiths out there with views like your own is motivation enough.

Also the notion that I wouldn't risk my picks is interesting. If we were to hang out and I accepted your challenge (likely after a long night at the bar), I can't imagine bringing much more than a tensioner and a half-diamond. As for the other side of the coin, it wouldn't be out of the question for me to send an MTL cylinder or two toward someone thats into them anyway. After all, this community supported me that way the last time I was challenged and it turned out pretty well. Its only fair to return the favor (PM me folks if you think you have what it takes).

[tballard]

If you can open it with in 20 minutes, I'll give you 10 mtl kik cylinders and you can ship them to your buddies. thats a $1,000 bet. What are you going to give me when you fail? You can't just lie about being able to do something and not put your money where your mouth is. What do I get when you can't open the lock? something worth $1,000 ?
Tell you what, if you can't open it, I get to keep all of your picks that you have with you.

<snip>

Like I said, I know you can't do it, and I know the challenge ends here because you won't put your picksets up in the bet.

I don't think this really goes with the spirit and goals of most members of this forum. The idea here is to learn, and to figure out how to solve puzzles. The MTL is an exceedingly good puzzle, but that doesn't mean it is uncrackable,

Products like MTL exist because other products considered to be "undefeatable" fell over time. (See: Chubb) Each generation of locks addresses problems which weren't known/understood at the time their predecessors were produced. To think that the current MTL is the end of the road, "game over" lock is unrealistic.

More importantly, the whole "what do I get when you fail" is a bad way to look at things. If I try to pick your lock and fail (which I almost certainly would, cuz I'm not that good) then you lose too. Because you didn't learn anything you didn't already know. But if I pick your lock and I succeed, then we both win. I get the triumph of solving a challenge (and of course super-pimp status) and more importantly YOU win, because you get to figure out how to improve your product. It's much better to have your lock fail at the hands of someone who will tell you how it was compromised, than find it mysteriously picked and all your belongings stolen.

[locfoc]

Don't misunderstand my point of view, I would be happier if I lost the bet and you picked it open, and I would never accept your picksets even if you didn't, because I don't need them and I wouldn't deprive somebody so cool from their tools.

I'm not being cocky here, I'm just poking into the community that claims they can pick them to see if it's really possible.
I want to see for myself if it is or not, and if it costs me $1,000 in locks to learn how to do it myself then so be it.

[locfoc]

And the thing you said about me believing in this product, as of right now I do. And that's the way it should be because I sell this product to my customers. So that means I'm a very good shop owner because I'm honest to my customers, and I believe in what I say. And I do hunt like a crazy man on forums to see what people are doing with high security products, and I haven't seen somebody pick a mul-t-lock then dump the pins out on video. i have seen marc do that with a medeco to prove it was a legit bump with 4 arx pins. so why hasn't it been done with a mul-t-lock if people claim it's possible? The proof isn't there behind their claims so you can see why I'm in disbelief.

[tballard]

And the thing you said about me believing in this product, as of right now I do. And that's the way it should be because I sell this product to my customers. So that means I'm a very good shop owner because I'm honest to my customers, and I believe in what I say. And I do hunt like a crazy man on forums to see what people are doing with high security products, and I haven't seen somebody pick a mul-t-lock then dump the pins out on video. i have seen marc do that with a medeco to prove it was a legit bump with 4 arx pins. so why hasn't it been done with a mul-t-lock if people claim it's possible? The proof isn't there behind their claims so you can see why I'm in disbelief.

One thing to keep in mind is that just because someone isn't showing off in public doesn't mean they haven't cracked it in private. I know that if I had found a bypass or pick method for MTL, I wouldn't be talking about it in public until after I had engaged with the manufacturers and either had given up on them fixing it, or a new version existed. (Who knows what's in the "advanced" forums? The mythical "universal master key"?)

[JK_the_CJer]

I wouldn't use this as a standard of proof or anything, but here's a video of a fellow disassembling after picking if you're interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzHVrCt28R4

[locfoc]

JK those are the old pins in a classic, and don't be fooled the old pins can be placed inside an interactive plug.

[le.nutzman]

What i can't believe is the level of your arrogance with regards to the ability level of the people in this community. I give a less about what company you work for, if you're an authorized dealer for Japan, Germany or otherwise. For you to come in to this forum and bawk your MTL knowledge thinking you can best any one of the predominately active advanced level lock pickers here is absolutely stupid. As it's been previously stated, this is a community that's constantly doing what everyone said can't be done.

You sound exactly like Nigel Bree, a software developer for Symantec Ghost on Radified.com who tried to tell me and over a thousand other users that the Ghost 2003 product doesn't exist. I boot a Ghost CD, took a screen shot where it said specifically - Ghost 2003. My point, throw a dozen of your personal selection personally pinned MTLs to some of the advanced pickers here, mark them so you know if they've been tampered with since you believe nobody could actually do it without tampering with them anyways, and I'm willing to bet that your crap gets returned open just like every other lock they said probably couldn't be beat.

[5thcorps]

Reading all of these statements now has me interested in tackling these multi's. If anyone out there could open these without a key i'd say JK could probably do it. He is a lot more devoted to the hobby of locksport than most of us on here and has made great developments with his time which he has passed on to all of us here so we can learn with him. He undoubtedly has spent 10 times more than I have picking locks and if JK sais he can open a mtl, I for one will not dispute him........