Working Non-steel Lockpicks + Forensics Info

[datagram]

While I was looking through some of the forensics evidence I noticed something that should probably be considered. In the examples I was looking at (key bumping/impressioning) I noticed that you are using new locks. And not used locks. Now I understand that this would make it easier to find marks left behind from whatever methods you are using to open the locks. But Does this information really transfer over to real world applications? For example key bumping will leave a smooth dented spot on the bottom pin. But if a lock has been in use for at least a year. Wouldn't it have similar smooth/dented spots on the key just from regular use?

In my opinion it is easier with wear and tear because a) pins have no milling marks, and are basically polished during normal use (unless the key is poorly cut, lock not assembled properly, etc), b) lubricant, dirt, etc sets on the components and makes tool marks stand out. Check the "Normal Wear" page on the site to see various states of wear.

I'm using new locks because I have a large supply of them and because I can confirm nothing else has ever been done to them. It is easier overall, and marks don't look too different without the milling marks.

dg

[FarmerFreak]

I have to say that I really like your website. I have a lot of reading to do.

A co-worker came up with this crazy idea. I told him that I would share the idea...... Take a key cut it down like a bump key. And then (and this would be the hard part) drill holes into it so that air can flow through the key. And hook it up to Co2 canister. Maybe give it a trigger action like a paintball gun. The idea is to be able to keybump/pickgun the lock with air pressure. Which shouldn't leave any marks on the bottom of the pin. Personally I think the idea is completely unpractical, but in theory I guess that it's possible.

[unlisted]

I have to say that I really like your website. I have a lot of reading to do.

A co-worker came up with this crazy idea. I told him that I would share the idea...... Take a key cut it down like a bump key. And then (and this would be the hard part) drill holes into it so that air can flow through the key. And hook it up to Co2 canister. Maybe give it a trigger action like a paintball gun. The idea is to be able to keybump/pickgun the lock with air pressure. Which shouldn't leave any marks on the bottom of the pin. Personally I think the idea is completely unpractical, but in theory I guess that it's possible.

I think this is a cool idea and Jaakko should get right on it..

[bluefish6900]

I have to say that I really like your website. I have a lot of reading to do.

A co-worker came up with this crazy idea. I told him that I would share the idea...... Take a key cut it down like a bump key. And then (and this would be the hard part) drill holes into it so that air can flow through the key. And hook it up to Co2 canister. Maybe give it a trigger action like a paintball gun. The idea is to be able to keybump/pickgun the lock with air pressure. Which shouldn't leave any marks on the bottom of the pin. Personally I think the idea is completely unpractical, but in theory I guess that it's possible.

Without the actually BUMP wouldn't all the pins Top/Bottom Raise? Don't the mechanics of bump keys work on the same princapal as Billards balls.
This is just my thinking but for this to work you'd have to SPP with air. Very what pins get the air and at what amount. Feedback would be a little diffficult.

Bluefish

[FarmerFreak]

His idea was actually to do it as a bump. A short burst of air hitting all of the pins at once. But actually you "might" be able to pick the lock with light turning tension and being able to control the air pressure......actually,....now you have me thinking.....I wonder if it would be possible to have enough air pressure going through a hole in a pick. So that you could put the pick under a pin, and slowly turn up the air pressure to lift the pin in place, and then move on to the next pin. You would have to rely on the tension wrench to know if the pin was set. And keeping with forensics, your tension wrench should probably be attached to the bottom of a blank as to not be detectable with examination.

Theoretically possible,..I think. I just don't know how to make a pick with a hole in it. It sure wouldn't be a quiet form of entry though.

[Legion303]

If one were to wish to pick a lock and make it impossible to prove, you could just bring a nickel silver key of that keyway and just scrub the lock and any that may also be examined for comparison. This would probably remove the marks on the tips of the pins, which are not deep if you intended not to leave marks, meaning that you used well sanded picks and light picking technique.

But unless your picking technique is 100% perfect, wouldn't there still be marks on the sides of the pins? I know I scrape the hell out of every exposed pin surface every time I stick a pick into a keyway. :)

We were just discussing this on a local mailing list...my gut feeling is that any material harder than the soft brass pins will leave marks, and any material softer than the pins will soak up any feedback you would otherwise get. But DG, I would suggest Plasti-dip to cut down on any scraping, and see if that leaves obvious polishing marks on the sides. If not, you could combine that with Ray's suggestion to clear evidence from the pin tops and see how it works out.

EDIT: Let's be clear about the direction of this thread. It's NOT here to find ways to break and enter without leaving a trace. It's here to find ways to pick without a trace, and then discover new methods of detecting such an attack, or improve locks in a way to prevent it. I believe DG set out initially to prove that there is no method that will not leave some forensic evidence, but I'll let him field that one.

-steve

[datagram]

FarmerFreak, I don't think that'd work very well, only because the air will go elsewhere besides directly into the pins. This is the same problem with an air based comb-pick; you have to prevent air for escaping to allow the pin stacks to be shot all the way up and stay there. But in any event, by all means make this and I would be happy to test for forensic evidence

Raimundo, like Legion303 pointed out, that would only take away marks on the bottom of the pin, the side would still have marks. See the Lockpicking page on Lockpicking Forensics, heading "Effects of Wear". In those photos a lock has been picked normally and key inserted/removed 250 times. You'll see with the before and after that marks are still pretty clearly visible. A chunk of the key used to do this also flaked onto the pins At the same time, marks would still be in the plug walls, pin-chambers, and possibly the cam.

Let's be clear about the direction of this thread. It's NOT here to find ways to break and enter without leaving a trace. It's here to find ways to pick without a trace, and then discover new methods of detecting such an attack, or improve locks in a way to prevent it. I believe DG set out initially to prove that there is no method that will not leave some forensic evidence, but I'll let him field that one.

That is correct, though I also wanted to see if any materials other than steel would be suitable for lockpicks, in general.

dg

[datagram]

Finished working with fiberglass and brass picks, results are below.



The finished fiberglass pick. Roughly 0.028 thick, seemed like making it thinner would cause it to break, so I stopped there.



Also not surreptitious, you can see the fiber grain clearly established on the tip and side of the pin-tumbler. The fiberglass pick was a bit stronger than the carbon fiber, and seemed easier to work with despite being a bit thick. Feedback is actually not too bad with fiberglass.



Tips of some of the pins also have fiberglass dust stuck to them.



Like the carbon fiber picks, finding brass transfer on the pick is easy. The lubricant from inside the lock is also easy to spot (the dark spots) and could also be used to correlate a suspect's pick to a given lock.

Brass pick:



Brass left the same marks as traditional steel tools, though admittely a bit softer. Not going to take up thread real estate with pictures, since they pretty much look the same. Feedback with brass is about the same as steel, but the pick has considerably less horizontal strength.

dg

[bluefish6900]

What are the chances of having a pick with an interchangeable tip Ie Wedged/ Bonded between two pieces of brass or anything that wouldn't leave marks on plug wall. Could add this in to the forming of the pick.
Tips would have to be a rubber compound or similair that would not break down with picking forces. Not and easy thing to build. It would be neat to try out. Did the fiberglass leave marks on side wall? Has anything you've tried not left marks on the side wall. Thats, where i would start. First Get the side wall out of the problem then go for the pins.

Just my 2 cents. And that's CDN, so not 2 cent in the US lol.

Bluefish

[adrenalynn]

If it's not made from exactly the same material as the expected key, isn't mass-spectrometry always going to turn up a foreign object?

I guess it depends how badly they want you. Fun thread though! [thumbs-up]

[datagram]

What are the chances of having a pick with an interchangeable tip Ie Wedged/ Bonded between two pieces of brass or anything that wouldn't leave marks on plug wall. Could add this in to the forming of the pick.
Tips would have to be a rubber compound or similair that would not break down with picking forces. Not and easy thing to build. It would be neat to try out. Did the fiberglass leave marks on side wall? Has anything you've tried not left marks on the side wall. Thats, where i would start. First Get the side wall out of the problem then go for the pins.

Combined materials is a serious pain in the ass because either a) adding doesn't really help much, or b) thickness gets too much, too quickly. I have not cut plugs apart for these yet, not sure that I will. Pins are the first source of covert entry evidence, and plugs sometimes aren't taken apart if the pins can provide enough evidence (destruction is always a last resort).

If it's not made from exactly the same material as the expected key, isn't mass-spectrometry always going to turn up a foreign object?

Possibly, but there are many foreign materials in the lock caused by normal use. Think of how many things your keys touch just by being in your pocket or bag! It might be done in high-profile cases, but like the use of scanning-electron microscopes it is not something that will be done all the time.

Brass, fiberglass, and carbon-fiber were on the short list of easy-to-do picks...will spend the next few weeks figuring out ceramics and glass. If any of you will be at the LayerOne conference this weekend, come talk to me with any suggestions! If not, post more here.

Thanks all,
dg

[jeffm]

A co-worker came up with this crazy idea. I told him that I would share the idea...... Take a key cut it down like a bump key. And then (and this would be the hard part) drill holes into it so that air can flow through the key. And hook it up to Co2 canister. Maybe give it a trigger action like a paintball gun. The idea is to be able to keybump/pickgun the lock with air pressure. Which shouldn't leave any marks on the bottom of the pin. Personally I think the idea is completely unpractical, but in theory I guess that it's possible.

Im not sure if I completely understand.. would his idea be something like this?

[FarmerFreak]

I think you completely understand. Yes, it would be exactly like that. Nice picture jeffm. This tool is going to be on my list of things that I will probably never make. But if somehow sometime I do make it. And if it works, I am going to send one to datagram so he can play around with it and test the forensics left behind.

[raimundo]

a bump hits the bottom pin and knocks the top one up, but an air blast, probably going to push both pins up, I cant see the bottom one staying down against air pressure. So yes, its a comb pick if it works.

Air Nike meet Air sputnick

[ridderhenck]

How about using the needle of a syringe,bent it a bit and use this in combination with air,to spp a lock by small airbursts?Just a thought.

Also foilimpressioning,would that leave traces?

DG,I am planning of sending a lock with a foilcomb to you so you can practice and test,the lock you requested I don,t have so I can not make a foilimpressioncomb for that lock

Let me know what you think!