Working Non-steel Lockpicks + Forensics Info

[FarmerFreak]

The problem with the foil impressioning is that it will still leave marks on the side of the pins when they are bound. You should check out datagrams website, it's very good.

I also thought about the syringe idea. But I think it would be too easy to scratch the pins with it. The idea of course is to not ever have the syringe to touch a pin, but when moving from pin to pin I think it would still touch the pins. It would only work if you could consistantly put the end directly centered under a pin. It would be fun to play with though. I wonder how much air presure you would need to keep the pin lifted above the syringe? Would a syringe small enough to fit inside of a keyway survive the pressure? The same questions can be asked for the tool I suggested earlier.

[ridderhenck]

I know DG,s website,great stuff indeed.The pressure used with foilimpressioning is a lot less than impressioning a lock so I,m not convinced of the marks one gets when using foil.

[datagram]

Also foilimpressioning,would that leave traces?

DG,I am planning of sending a lock with a foilcomb to you so you can practice and test,the lock you requested I don,t have so I can not make a foilimpressioncomb for that lock

Let me know what you think!

Foil impressioning leaves traces, but I don't have the tools to do it. If you'd like to donate them I'd be very happy to use them and examine all the evidence for more material on the site. Foil impressioning leave traces because of force, but also because the compression of the foil flakes off material onto the plug and components.

If anyone else is interested in donating, I am currently looking for the following:

+ Foil impressioning tools
+ Pressure-responsive impressioning tools (lead/composite keyblanks or associated tools)
+ Copy impressioning (molding/casting) tools
+ Decoding tools (any)
+ Bypass tools (any)
+ Locks that have been compromised with destructive methods
+ Non-standard lockpicking tools

I can pay shipping on these as well as purchase them outright if they aren't too expensive. Normal locks are welcome, too, but I'd prefer they not have been picked/bumped/etc so that I can use them for whatever tests I need.

I know that this site doesn't like open discussion of some of these tools, so please PM me instead of posting openly; I'd rather this thread stay in the public forums.

I'm going to get started on ceramic and glass tools for anti-forensics tests, not sure when I'll get a chance to make them, though. Also looking into having fun with liquid nitrogen and liquid helium, if I can

Thanks all,
dg

[w00tb0t]

I wonder if you could simplify the needle idea, although SPP'ing with air is a cool idea, in theory you would get no feedback at all.

Take a thick hypo-needle and use a file to scrub holes in it along one side and solder the tip closed. (coat it in wax/plastic to prevent scratches to the plug)
[this allows the needle to quickly blow all the pins upward just as in bumping, but without the physical contact] I assume there may be some marks on the pins due to tension, but I think its a technique that could be mastered easily to leave minimal to no markings on the lock.

A few quick high pressure bursts in a lock and a polycarbonate tension wrench and you might be able to bump the lock.

A DX cheap syringe, some JBweld and a compressor with blowing/cleaning attachment would be a quick way to try this. Just hope the needle doesnt blow out and become a projectile

Also have you tried the different polycarbonates... There are some mighty strong plastics out there, but I assume anything that you try that physically touches the pics and provides enough feedback will present the same results you obtained already.

I have always wondered if it was possible to pump a high voltage/high frequency pulse into a lock, and "listen" to the changes in modulation as the pins break contact and move around and separate at the shear line. Alas I don't have oscilloscope to play around with at the moment, maybe in the near future.

[lokpikr999]

Instead of making the entire pick out of a material other than steel,how bout just coat the tip of the pick(The only part that ever really contacts the pins)with a thin layer of a non-marking material like composites plastic?


Regards,

Alex.

[LocksmithArmy]

say yo make a pick out of 0.005" feeler gauge... then coat it with 0.01: layer of nice firm soft rubber compound...

gives you a pick 0.025" (bout the same as anything else) and the rubber might not scratch the metal at all...

polish the rubber so its smooth then it otta be good to go.

sure it may break and have 0 horizontal resistance but be careful and you only need 1 successful pick

[bushd]

Something I've been toying with in terms of pick ideas is instead of diamonds or curves why not create a dimple in the top of the diamond or curve that would fit the pin better. In fact, shaping the dimple after a real pin would be very beneficial and shouldn't be very large. Could even look at putting some plastidip or other compounds in the dimple to fill it back out to a diamond or just as a buffer.

I noticed you tried brass and the lot as well as the rubber coating comment but what about other precious materials, such as gold? It would be expensive to try but may work out well being so soft. If you're worried about the amount of gold required just electroplate it on something very, very thin if you can get it. You might even be able to chemically deposit-bond gold onto fiberglass or carbon fiber via reaction but that may be more then you've the time to complete. One thing I just thought about is good old natural wood. There are certainly very hard trees that make great wood-carved items but there are certainly soft ones such as a willow branch. I'm not sure what you should use but this could be a start.

What about putting something that's tactile to brass but not enough to come off the end of the pick? Parafin/jelly-ish so that it's soft but hard at the same time. A bonus of using waxes is that if you were afraid of traces in the lock just heat it up and whatever was on the pins would melt off. There are plenty of polymers available that would be able to accomplish this goal.

Someone mentioned pick shape as well and I'm inclined to think that diamonds would tend to leave more scarring where balls-double balls and curves might not assuming you've sanded the picks down with a high enough grit both vertical and horizontal.

[LocksmithArmy]

Something I've been toying with in terms of pick ideas is instead of diamonds or curves why not create a dimple in the top of the diamond or curve that would fit the pin better. In fact, shaping the dimple after a real pin would be very beneficial and shouldn't be very large. Could even look at putting some plastidip or other compounds in the dimple to fill it back out to a diamond or just as a buffer.

Peterson-international has done this. look at there lifter pick

its a hook with this "dimple" on the end

idk how it works tho as i dont have it

[fixed quote-unlisted]

[Scott_93]

Something that a friend once told me was that the British "special ops", used to use highly compressed air to force the pins to the shearline. Whether there is any truth to this is another thing.

Scott.

[unlisted]

Something that a friend once told me was that the British "special ops", used to use highly compressed air to force the pins to the shearline. Whether there is any truth to this is another thing.

Scott.

Heard it, but its a myth- even the bottom pins would be forced up past the shearline, binding the lock. (if it worked)

[Wizer]

say yo make a pick out of 0.005" feeler gauge... then coat it with 0.01: layer of nice firm soft rubber compound...

gives you a pick 0.025" (bout the same as anything else) and the rubber might not scratch the metal at all...

polish the rubber so its smooth then it otta be good to go.

sure it may break and have 0 horizontal resistance but be careful and you only need 1 successful pick

that sounds right. I wouldnot know how to make a pick like that, but it seems obvious that the scratching-hardness of materials is the point. In gemmology there is Mohs-scale that is used for that.
there are rubbers/plastics that could propably handle a picking or two. Of course there would be some rubber left in the lock.

[LocksmithArmy]

blow it out with compressed air

use raimundos key technique...

or prolly the most effective... dont worry about it...

what forensic locksmith will associate picking wiht rubber... hell just say y is there rubber in the lock

[datagram]

Instead of making the entire pick out of a material other than steel,how bout just coat the tip of the pick(The only part that ever really contacts the pins)with a thin layer of a non-marking material like composites plastic?

This is actually alot harder than it sounds. Like I've said earlier in the thread:

Combined materials is a serious pain in the donkey because either a) adding doesn't really help much, or b) thickness gets too much, too quickly.

what forensic locksmith will associate picking wiht rubber... hell just say y is there rubber in the lock

It doesn't matter if they associate it with picking or not, only that the presence of plastic in the lock means something is not normal. From there they can investigate further to determine if the plastic is a result of lockpicking or some other type of entry technique.

dg

[LocksmithArmy]

as far a coating i wouldnt coat persay...

id make a mold out of a pick that is 0.025" and put my 0.001" in it then fill the surrounding with the rubber

sinde your polishing anyway itll take off all flashing

agin i think a good blow with compressed air will get rubber out

well just have to try and find out

[unlisted]

as far a coating i wouldnt coat persay...

id make a mold out of a pick that is 0.025" and put my 0.001" in it then fill the surrounding with the rubber

sinde your polishing anyway itll take off all flashing

agin i think a good blow with compressed air will get rubber out

well just have to try and find out

You really need to study forensics more. You really don't know what your talking about with this topic.. And sadly it shows with you trying to "wing it."

Think microscopic, and think oil + particles of rubber/plastic/etc, that would commonly be found in a lock. Then think compressive/elastic forces, very tight tolerances, and bits getting caught in the pin stack, etc. Air would not blow it all out. Not at all.

Unless you do a complete tear down and full cleaning of the lock and parts, there will be evidence left. By full cleaning I mean a degreasing bath at a shop- and than repinned. But than there would be evidence of that as well... So, ya.. your SOL.