S & G 831-B

[jruther2]

One thing, jruther, I saw your video of when picked your S&G 831-B and that inspired me to learn how to pick medeco. Awesome Job!!!

Thanks a lot man. It was quite the journey that turned into a challenge one day when someone laughed at me and told me it couldn't be done. I'm glad I helped to spark the interest in medecos for you. If there is ever anything I can do to help, just ask. I'll do my best.

One thing I thought was very interesting...you said your S&G core has two mushroom pins correct? Very cool! I have two S&G cores, one without a key that came with my 831 when I bought it and another that I do have a key for and they both have all standard drivers. Does anyone know what the significance is? That is, did they only put shrooms in there during certain years or what? I have one other medeco cylinder that doesn't have any mushrooms in it either it is a kik.

[rrkss]

Not only does the core have 2 mushrooms but it has serrated key pins and an arx pin. Picking it to sheer has been a real chore and I have not been able to ever open that lock without a key.

[FarmerFreak]

One thing I thought was very interesting...you said your S&G core has two mushroom pins correct? Very cool! I have two S&G cores, one without a key that came with my 831 when I bought it and another that I do have a key for and they both have all standard drivers. Does anyone know what the significance is? That is, did they only put shrooms in there during certain years or what? I have one other medeco cylinder that doesn't have any mushrooms in it either it is a kik.

Based on the Medeco Biaxial kit at work. They use a different driver pin for every depth. And the 3 and 5 depth driver pins are all spooled and made out of brass. The other depth drivers are standard and made of steel. A while ago I went to a medeco M3 class, and if I remember correctly they typically come from the factory with 2 spooled pins.

[Squelchtone]

One thing I thought was very interesting...you said your S&G core has two mushroom pins correct? Very cool! I have two S&G cores, one without a key that came with my 831 when I bought it and another that I do have a key for and they both have all standard drivers. Does anyone know what the significance is? That is, did they only put shrooms in there during certain years or what? I have one other medeco cylinder that doesn't have any mushrooms in it either it is a kik.

Based on the Medeco Biaxial kit at work. They use a different driver pin for every depth. And the 3 and 5 depth driver pins are all spooled and made out of brass. The other depth drivers are standard and made of steel. A while ago I went to a medeco M3 class, and if I remember correctly they typically come from the factory with 2 spooled pins.

FarmerFreak is correct that only the size 3 and 5 top pins are security pins, so maybe your jruther's lock doesnt have more than one key cut that is a 3 or a 5, hence only one security pin in your locks. I do have to say that there is a difference in shape and appearance between a spool pin and a mushroom pin, but I have noticed that my own Medeco dealer/locksmith shop calls them spool pins, and when I brought up the point to them while hanging out at their counter one day, they said what's the difference. That really surprised me since locksmiths are always learning new locks and new ways of doing things. My point in all this, is that I believe Medeco only uses mushroom pins in 3 and 5 size top pins, as I have never seen spool pins, at least not outside of a real govt. ARX pin kit.

rrkss: the key pins that you said are serrated, are actually called grooved and that single wide groove is not as much meant for picking prevention, but to stop the John Falle Medeco decoder which measured pin height/axial position. (someone correct me if it only measures one or the other)

I have a PDF on the ARX system, which by the wway is more a way of doing things, rather than a type of Medeco pin. I made the mistake of calling certain pins ARX pins when I first learned about it. To a point certain ones are ARX pins, but there are Medeco pins with steel inserts, yet I wouldn't call them ARX. Medeco ARX was/is a govt./military system of pinning up locks randomly enough so that a target installation cannot be compromised simply by decoding a single door lock and knowing how the others are pinned, because every lock at that installation uses random security/hardened steel pins for top and bottom, as well as blank face cylinders, so you cannot easily see that they are Medeco brand. The ARX system also had additional anti-drill protection rods inserted in the cylinder next to the plug.

Please see p42, p47, and p49 of this PDF for some really good information.
http://nynex.s5.com/TOOOL-US-Boston/PDFs/Medeco/MEDECO-Binder-1.pdf

It's funny that on p49, what we would normally call a serrated top pin, they call it a spool pin.

Squelchtone

[Squelchtone]

Above I said to rrkss that his key pin is "grooved", I think I may have been wrong on that, as the term "ringed" seems to pop into my mind. If you look at the ARX pin diagram in the pdf on p49, you can see what they call a ringed pin, but the ones rrkss is talking about only have 1 ring and it is almost at the top of the key pin, not mid way down.

corrections welcome,
Squelchtone

[jruther2]

FarmerFreak is correct that only the size 3 and 5 top pins are security pins, so maybe your jruther's lock doesnt have more than one key cut that is a 3 or a 5, hence only one security pin in your locks.

First off I want to say thanks for providing the link for the binder. I already have it but I had a real tough time finding it. It was very nice for you to make the link available so that others may not have to deal with such a hassle as I went through to get it.

The S&G 831-b cores that I have are medeco classic, not biaxial. It was my understanding that all of the 831's had classic cores in them. I could be wrong as I have not researched it myself I am just going on what I've heard from others. I see in the binder on page 25 fig. 19 they show mushrooms for pins 1 & 3 for the classic so I guess you're right squelchtone, I just got unlucky (lucky picking-wise?) that neither of my S&G cores have a number 1 or number 3 pin consequently not having any mushrooms.

I do have to say that there is a difference in shape and appearance between a spool pin and a mushroom pin, but I have noticed that my own Medeco dealer/locksmith shop calls them spool pins, and when I brought up the point to them while hanging out at their counter one day, they said what's the difference. That really surprised me since locksmiths are always learning new locks and new ways of doing things.

I have heard of this on several occasions where a locksmith uses the term mushroom and spool interchangeably. It really bothered me for a while. However, the locksmiths that I have talked to usually aren't as interested in locks as I am and such details seem trivial to them as they are both anit-picking pins that give somewhat similar effects (perhaps not the medeco 'spools' that look more like huge serrations to me) and don't affect the way the lock works at all when opened with a key as intended. Just a observation...

[rrkss]

Well I am starting to get much better at picking this lock. The hardest thing is tensioning the cylinder. I will have it picked to sheer and the pins rotated and not even notice because I am putting too little tension on the cylinder. At least I have the technique worked out.

[rrkss]

Well I've finally been able to figure out how to pick my medeco biaxial cylinder consistantly with all 6 pins. Not going to pick the S&G since its a brand new collectors lock and my biaxial took quite a beating in my process of learning. You can see scratches in the key pins. Don't want to do that to a lock that I can't replace due to it being military restricted.

What I found out is the best two tools to pick a medeco biaxial is a southord half ball pick for picking to sheer and a peterson gem pick for pin rotation. Once picked to sheer counterclockwise, the rotationally set pins just rattle. The non-rotationally set pins will either feel stiff or stick. You position the peterson gem pick behind the chisel, let off on tension (don't worry if you unset other pins) and pull on the pick until you hear a click (sounds similar to the click you hear when you set a pin). Then pick to sheer again and repeat the process for the other non-rotationally set pins. Once all pins are set, the sidebar will retract and the lock will open.

[Squelchtone]

rrkss,

Just wanted to say thanks for the tip on using a small hook for picking the medecos. That's not the normal pick I would use for the purpose or rotating pins, so thanks for leading me down the right path.

take a look at the aftermath of my rumble with an 833c padlock:
http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=45254

have a good weekend!
Squelchtone

[rrkss]

Nice work!!! It makes me feel great to see people on here do what is usually deamed impossible.

[FarmerFreak]

I have to thank you guys. I have been practicing Medeco picking since getting on these forums. I am just now getting to where I can pick them almost always under ten minutes. It's a real good feeling. And I don't think I would be where I am at with them if it weren't for reading/and trying a lot of the ideas on these forums regarding Medeco.

I basically have it down to a science now. I use a hook pick, a rigid tension wrench (top tension), and a groove grabber (I made it out of a broken pick handle, and notched it with the front of the lock, so if you can get it into the groove you can line the notch with the front of the plug. And then you can know that the angle is set.) My groove grabber also works great for turning pins even without being in the groove, since the tip goes to a nice sharp point.

Picking goes as follows. Light tension and rake it a couple of times with the hook. This is only to set pins on either the correct angle or a fake, doesn't matter which one at this point. Then I go on to pick it like normal, until I think I am not getting anywhere (wrong angles). At which point I turn on the heavy tension (I know scary huh, calm down). While I am using heavy tension I use my hook to feel the bottom of each pin, if it wiggles I move on to the next one, If it feels completely rigid. Then there is no question that this pin needs to turn, so back to really light tension and turn the pin with the groove grabber. If it turns obviously I am finished, if another pin dropped. I simply grab my hook and re-pick it and continue feeling for the pin on the wrong angle.

If it didn't have ARX pin I used to try and set the angles first. But they usually got turned on me when I tried to pick them anyway.

In short,...Thank you everybody
Farmerfreak

[rrkss]

I have to thank you guys. I have been practicing Medeco picking since getting on these forums. I am just now getting to where I can pick them almost always under ten minutes. It's a real good feeling. And I don't think I would be where I am at with them if it weren't for reading/and trying a lot of the ideas on these forums regarding Medeco.

I basically have it down to a science now. I use a hook pick, a rigid tension wrench (top tension), and a groove grabber (I made it out of a broken pick handle, and notched it with the front of the lock, so if you can get it into the groove you can line the notch with the front of the plug. .....Thank you everybody
Farmerfreak

Sweet to hear! Would love to see a photo of your groove grabbing tool. Please post

[FarmerFreak]

I will post pictures. At the moment my father-in-law has my camera. And that camera is terrible for lock/pick pictures. So please be patient while I try and get a hold of a better camera. I'm still not sure if I want to buy a better one, since my camera works great for family pictures.

[rrkss]

I will post pictures. At the moment my father-in-law has my camera. And that camera is terrible for lock/pick pictures. So please be patient while I try and get a hold of a better camera. I'm still not sure if I want to buy a better one, since my camera works great for family pictures.

If its digital, take the photo from a distance of at least 2-3 feet and use a little bit of zoom, makes it easier to focus and you can always use paint to crop it before you post. Can't wait to see the photos.

[sfi72]

I will post pictures. At the moment my father-in-law has my camera. And that camera is terrible for lock/pick pictures. So please be patient while I try and get a hold of a better camera. I'm still not sure if I want to buy a better one, since my camera works great for family pictures.

If its digital, take the photo from a distance of at least 2-3 feet and use a little bit of zoom, makes it easier to focus and you can always use paint to crop it before you post. Can't wait to see the photos.

Or try putting the camera on "macro mode".