European hardware -lever locks, profile cylinders specific for European locks. European lock picks and European locks.
by panalman » 10 Sep 2009 19:01
Anyone had a bad experience with the above if you don’t get it I am referring to the ICL institute of certified locksmiths. I look forward to your posts
There is always a solution to a problem and a way in without destruction !!!!!
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panalman
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by 79commando » 11 Sep 2009 2:57
There has been a couple of wasters that have had problems with the above Institute due to the fact that the ICL have the cheek to expect members to be security vetted to prove they have no criminal records, Pick Locks first before resorting to the drill, stick by standards that protect the customer and are trying to bring licensing in for locksmiths so that information and tools can only be sold to bonafide locksmiths and not criminals.
A couple that had issues were due to them taking information and ideas from helpfull members then selling them on as their own tools to the general public. Abusing members that have helped out others to make themselves look good etc.
If you know of anyone that has had issues with the ICL ask them why. Is it because they are not allowed to be a member (non trading, criminal record, bad history of ripping off others) or were they members who were suspended (see previous reasons). Then ask yourself why someone can have an issue with an Institute that protects the customer and locksmith trade. An Institute that will bin anyone that does adhere to standards that can only protect the industry. Not just on hearsay but with documented proof.
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79commando
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by 79commando » 11 Sep 2009 3:35
Excuse the grammer I should have said "doesn't adhere". For oversees guests the ICL has members throughout the UK most of whom are based in different Geographical areas so to piss off another member when they do not in direct conflict would be difficult. You get security vetted. Provide proof of trading, pay your £50 and become a student member with access to the forums where individuals exchange ideas and work. If you prove to have a good ability to pick locks you can advance to member then certified status each of which carries their perks (discounts from wholesalers, more work, better info exchange). To get booted off the Institute is not one man's descision to make. The information is given to a committee to decide and voted on. Again nine times out of ten there is probably only one or two committee members that actualy know the person and at times these individuals have for personnel reasons requested not to vote on a dismissal etc. It's not perfect but on the whole it works quite well. No information as to why a named person is binned is ever shared with anyone outside of the committee to allow the individual some decency. On a whole the members are a great bunch that share a common passion and like a few drinks  Like all decent sized Institutes you will get the odd one slip through the net, we're not the KGB and don't spy on everyone we rely mainly on self policing but we have a redress system via the internet where customers can seek arbitration against any member who he thinks has ripped them off etc. Only full members and above can use the ICL logo for advertisement as it is Copyrighted and legal action is taken against it's missuse. We don't bin members for not getting on with other members, trust me some of them think I'm a bell but hey shit happens (It's the last time I'll sleep with their wives  ) they're binned for bringing the ICL into disrepute mainly
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79commando
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by panalman » 11 Sep 2009 7:08
79commando wrote:There has been a couple of wasters that have had problems with the above Institute due to the fact that the ICL have the cheek to expect members to be security vetted to prove they have no criminal records, Pick Locks first before resorting to the drill, stick by standards that protect the customer and are trying to bring licensing in for locksmiths so that information and tools can only be sold to bonafide locksmiths and not criminals.
A couple that had issues were due to them taking information and ideas from helpfull members then selling them on as their own tools to the general public. Abusing members that have helped out others to make themselves look good etc.
If you know of anyone that has had issues with the ICL ask them why. Is it because they are not allowed to be a member (non trading, criminal record, bad history of ripping off others) or were they members who were suspended (see previous reasons). Then ask yourself why someone can have an issue with an Institute that protects the customer and locksmith trade. An Institute that will bin anyone that does adhere to standards that can only protect the industry. Not just on hearsay but with documented proof.
Hi Thanks for your reply and yes I do understand the principals of the ICL and I am all for it I was a member myself for a couple of years but decided not to renew my membership due to the fact I could never access the forums even after taking up the issue with Dominic and around a year latter with one of the moderators so as far as I was concerned it was a waste of 2 years subscriptions. However it seems I was not just a one off I was working with a locksmith a couple of weeks ago on a national contract who mentioned the ICL and it seems he had the same problem and is quite upset with the whole thing as a friend of his who is not a member has accesses to the forums albeit a non member status but he has accesses something neither of us had and we both paid a yearly subscriptions. I am not at all trying to put the ICL down as I am all for what they stand for but as George says they seem to bend the rules to suit themselves his words not mine I was merely trying to find out if this is a common fault with the ICL Kind Regards
There is always a solution to a problem and a way in without destruction !!!!!
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panalman
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by mickinspain » 11 Sep 2009 11:57
There is always a solution to a problem and a way in without destruction ...... so e-mail or PM a commitee member with your full details and I am sure you will be lit up like a christmas tree, mistakes happen and e-mails tend to get forgotten when there are 9 people to answer them. I agree sometimes we lack cohesion but we try.PM me if you like and the other guy as well see what I can do.
If it can be copied why write it again?
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mickinspain
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by 79commando » 11 Sep 2009 14:17
Sorry to hear you were treated this way, if there's anything I can do E-mail the ICL and I'll try to sort it. The account suffers from some serious Spam at times and may have been missed.
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79commando
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by lockey1963 » 12 Sep 2009 15:41
I think you will find there are 4 main groups of people that have a problem with The ICL , these are
1) those that have been banned , rejected and some that left.
In the early days a few left that had legitimate grievence and this normally had a single denominating factor , but in recent years the icl is committee lead and run making decision making a more reasoned and controlled duty
2) those that do not know or understand the icl or the members in ICL
many are not sure what the icl are about , its motives its aspirations, this will soon be made much clearer when its full constitution is published.
3) Those that see it as a threat or fear it in some way normally through lack of understanding.
many see the nde ethos as unworkable or impossible to live up to, yet most members live to the ethos and admit it benefits their business, some think its a scam to sell nde training, yet members get a number of free training events each year worth far more than the annual £50 fee, the last one a few months ago was Alluminium door repair and servicing , basic carpentry splicing in new frame section , and a full days lock impressioning with one of best in busines. so the icl exam is stiff yes, but with a number of free weekends designed to teach the skills to pass this there is nothing to fear. Where else can you join an org that teaches you for free, passes you work , has regular skills improvement weekend workshops, annual show , around 4 annual meet ups for social drink , a lively technical forum where real help and advice is free and back up is like no other, and all for an annual fee of £50.
4) those that just enjoy having a pop at anything
lets face it every org and everybody suffers from hecklers for what ever reason.
ICL has now been going for 7 years almost , and grows in number and strebgth every year, even the current MLA chairman is an ICL member and sees the value in both, also , MLA have no issues using ICL members for their own training, so cant be all bad.
What i will say is that icl today is not the same set up as it was 5 years ago, and will be far more advanced in 12 months time also, lead by a knowledgeable and committed committee who work hard to make icl what many of us hoped it would be.
be a good thread to watch as 2 committee members answering above and offering to answer an queries, the thread may even be a learning curve for all .
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lockey1963
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by rockylocky » 22 Sep 2009 16:11
I was asked to join the ICL a few years ago by a gentleman called Minky (if memory serves me correct). He was at the time friends with a man called Chaz Belcher, but then their was a parting of the waves and my invitation to join dissappeared Years went on and Minky (lockey1963) stopped training people (as he now had better offers), I mean he decided he could make more money from b-atchin about people in a 100% destructive total girly way. Along with his inmates Nigela Tooley and Andrea Collier they have helped to build the empire called ICL. Since the growth of the ICL I would still love  to join as their are quite a few members I respect. My problem is this. I have been told by some of Minkys crew that he has bin girly fibbin' and in such a girly way that those people would not find out behind a secure forum oops u have a leak Since Minkys slander is luckily been published on the ICL forum (dont worry about deleting posts they have already been saved....) action will now ensue. I hope my ICL application to the non b-atchin board members will still be considered. Now Minky your quest is this. You have been b-atchin about alot of people (you just cant help yourself). You need to ask yourself - who am I ? And why am I so confident I'm gonna see u in court. I look forward to a non biased application approval by the rest of the ICL (if you are not Minkys girls) Big up the Worcester MAssive 
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rockylocky
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by lockey1963 » 23 Sep 2009 3:25
lol , excellent and original , im sure with this humour you would fit right in, im sure you should submit your application to the committee. minkey
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lockey1963
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by chip » 23 Sep 2009 12:03
Great first post rockylocky, I'm sure you will end up being a valued member here 
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chip
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by Jaakko » 23 Sep 2009 14:14
rockylocky, I don't think it is wise to talk about people with their nick names and real names unless the people you are talking about approve it. Nick names or aliases are usually used for a reason. I know the names are a little "modified", but at least I know couple of those names.
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Jaakko
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by lockey1963 » 23 Sep 2009 16:24
everyone is entitled to an opinion , right or wrong they are entitled to it . And at least the post was witty .
if a genuine post then id say submit the application to the committee , which minky is not currently an active part of, so cannot influence it, nor would he want to, ruled himself out of this, thought the leak may have mentioned this too as public knowledge. It will recieve the same consideration that any application does im sure.
if its felt rocky would benefit the icl membership and icl membership would benefit rocky and the paperwork is in order then there is no reason not to apply if no VALID reason for the committee to reject it then i doubt it would be.
if whom i think , then maybe its time for changes , if not then who knows. what ever will be will be !
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lockey1963
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by JackNco » 23 Sep 2009 17:08
Jaakko wrote:rockylocky, I don't think it is wise to talk about people with their nick names and real names unless the people you are talking about approve it. Nick names or aliases are usually used for a reason. I know the names are a little "modified", but at least I know couple of those names.
Im with Jaakko on this one. Regardless on your views of an organisation or someones actions using recognisable full names on an open forum is not on. Even I recognised every name in there by association or reputation and im not even a locksmith never mind an ICL member so every locksmith in the UK worth his salt will know who they are. Maybe you should just grow up a bit  and slander is VOCAL. plus I doubt screenshots of a forums would stand up in court, not defending eiter side here but using peoples names on a forum really is just bad form. JessicaNco
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by rockylocky » 24 Sep 2009 11:27
See u all at the show on Saturday Big up the Worcester MASSIVE 
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