MLA vs ICL??? UK Locksmith Courses??

[don1]

So I'm thinking about taking one of the above courses. I think it goes without saying that these are the only courses/institutes worth taking seriously within the UK]? I'm leaning towards ICL for these reasons; They seem to compact their course with a lot more info... perhaps too much to take in in the time period but the similar MLA courses seems to be quite the opposite. With the MLA you pay 1600 quid for a five day course that covers;

Basic Locksmith Tools.
Basic of Master Keying
Blank Identification & the basic of key cutting to Pattern
Brief History of safes & locks
Door & Frame Construction
Health & Safety
Key Machine & workshop safety
Key Procedures for Restricted & Registered Keys
Keycutting to a: Cabinet, Mortice & Safe Lock
Mechanical & stand alone Digital Locks
Mortice& Rim Lock Fitting
Padlocks & Locking Bars.
Principle of Lever, Disc Tumbler & Pin Tumbler mechanisms & key differs
Product Knowledge
Specialist Door Locks, UPVc, Aluminium & Multi-point
Stripping & reassembling of Lever Locks & Pin Tumbler Cylinders
Stripping a Rim Cylinder & Cutting a key by hand.
Window & Ancillary Door Locks

ICL 5 day course is £1300. It includes the following day courses;

Course A, Standard Locksmithing (two days)
Course B, Non-destructive Entry (one day)
Course C, Lock Recognition (one day)
Course D, Digital Locks(one day)
(details http://locksmithstrainingcentre.co.uk/advanced.htm )

Now I have the carpentry skills already and have been doing a lot of research over the last 6 months. So, I think I may be aware of some of the history, health and safety info included in the MLA Basic Locksmithing course. I Also have learnt to cut keys (which is not a priority for me anyway).
I believe the MLA to have a higher respect and status than the ICL but for me I reckon it's going to be more practical to take the ICL course - practice a whole load! - Get work with a company to gain some experience - then take the appropriate exams with the BLI to become a member of the MLA! phew!! Something like that anyway!!!
I also want to get qualified in uPVC and glazing repair and get NVQ (or similar) in Security & Emergency Alarm Systems!

All of this with the goal of setting up my own business and becoming one of the best!! lol

I feel like I have rambled and may not have been clear on some things but please leave any comments and feedback. Any knowledge or info from UK locksmiths or trainees that have or haven't been on these courses is valuable to me!

Thanks for reading!

[lockey1963]

The ICL do not run any courses at all , they recognise some courses as being suitable for student entry to icl and thats it, there is no such thing as an icl course despite how an advert may seem to read.

Nothing compares to The MLA courses , yes more expensive and yes over a far longer time , but is also a far superior course covering far more if seeking a career in the trade, the walkers course is shorter and covers less as is an intro to the trade. depends what you need from it.

Don braidwood in swansea does an excellent upvc course over 2 does , his details can be found on dawta website , also paul at greenfox solutions and dg supplyline offer ok courses , dons covers far more.

You may want to look at your plan , finding work with a locksmith these days is almost impossible, and will be the hardest bit of your plan for world domination.

The MLA courses may take years to complete and master , but are the best way to carve out a career , it will take years to become competent , after all you cant learn carpentry in a few days, locksmithing is no different , it takes years.

ICL forum is good , the guys there are great , the mla forum is good and the training is superb , you can join both , you can train with either , or with neither and still join both.

shorter and compact is often appealing, longer and trained by some of the best and most respected locksmiths in the industry is far more thorough, depends what you want from it, every mla instructor has a lifetimes experience in the industry.

but icl do not offer any training courses at all other than the free training sessions it puts on for its members periodically.

[lockey1963]

mla are far more recognised general lockies and have a reputation as such, ICL is a specialist group of nde locksmiths recognised as expert openers for certain specialist areas , and are recognised as such even by mla.
both orgs are very different , ones a general lockie group the other a specialist entry group.

dawta specialise in upvc side of the trade as ala specialise in auto.

depends what you want again from an org

general locksmith - mla
specialist entry - icl
auto - ala
upvc - dawta

depends what you want.

[don1]

mla are far more recognised general lockies and have a reputation as such, ICL is a specialist group of nde locksmiths recognised as expert openers for certain specialist areas , and are recognised as such even by mla.
both orgs are very different , ones a general lockie group the other a specialist entry group.

dawta specialise in upvc side of the trade as ala specialise in auto.

depends what you want again from an org

general locksmith - mla
specialist entry - icl
auto - ala
upvc - dawta

depends what you want.

I realize ICL only recommend/endorse those courses... my bad tho.

Both helpful comments.. So ICL is more for specialized entry.. Is there much of that specialist work?

[taylorgdl]

Here is a bit of warrant entry work around, but it takes a long time to get good enough to do it well.

Do it wrong and you're dropped and never used again, bad news travels fast.

The technical support from these organisations is superb as is the amount of work passed around. So it is certainly joining at least one of them.

[lockey1963]

theres not as much as there used to be , the top 10% still work on predominantly opening work , utility warrants are not as fussy these days and as such theres not as much of this work about as there used to be as more people able to fill it.
The top 10% are as passionate about picking as the top locksport guys and share a true passion others play at it.

outside of the top 10% the rest have to be good general lockies , safe techs or auto lockies or a bit of each.
The top 10% of safe techs do nothing but top end safes , the rest must do a bit of the other work too, the top auto guys the same and so on.

the market is so oversaturated that specialist areas are needed , but if working and hoping to make a living from a specialist area you must become one of the best, otherwise you have to cover a wide spectrum of skills to make a good living.
MLA are the most respected general locksmiths covering this wide spectrum of skills , offering high standards in all areas of trade , yes they drill in the basics but its these basics that form the foundations needed.

the shorter course routes still offer entry , but leave the majority of training down to the individual, they can show you how in a short time, but cannot make you good, mla are just more in depth and more thorough, both have their positives and both their negatives , alot will be down to you , what you want , what you have the aptitude and commitment for and what investment you have.

alot of the short courses are similar , most teach basic opening , lock changing , basic lock fitting so not hard to fathom a guess on which work is in shortest supply as these markets are oversaturated.
areas not as oversubscribed are access control, alluminium door fitting and servicing, general service work, maglock and electronic lock fault finding and fitting, safe service , and so on, its the general service skills that make money and are not oversubscribed as knowledge is sparse in these areas outside of mla.

how many short courses teach and offer an adequate working knowledge of building regs , fire regs , insurance regs and the various british standards you should be working to as a locksmith in the many areas of industry we encroach into, its surprising how little many trading as lockies know of these regs, which is shocking as how can they provide a full service.

so again it depends what it is you want , how much time and money you plan to invest into your set up before it earns for you, to want to offer safes , general locksmithing , auto , upvc , access control etc etc etc , it will take years and a small fortune, before it shows a return.
to become competent in autos takes years , and costs a fortune to keep up with, safes the same , every specialist area takes years to become competent.

so again, the route you follow depends on you and your business plan, all have their positives and negatives and all have their pitfalls, the one thing they all share in common, is all are a long road and all cost a sizeable investment. once you decide upon your wants and needs the right route will stand out for you.

[lockey1963]

it is almost impossible to advise anyone what route to take , as only you know your current skill levels and knowledge , your investment levels, your aptitude and so on, as all we can say is the short courses are cheaper and less comprehensive , so fit some peoples needs better , but in almost every succesfull lockies case who came from a short course , they have almost all spent as much in additional training in all areas to have spent what the mla course costs in 1st place, or spent alot longer learning it. so at end of day in reality both routes have similar costs, just some suit different people better.


at end of day what route suits you ? both are usefull and both if you have the commitment will work for you

[don1]

ALL really helpful comments, thanks guys

[Chris B]

Hi Don

Probably, you have read many posts on this forum regarding locksmith training, etc.
Many of these posts are written by "lockey1963/Pinky".
You will notice that I.C.L Recognised Training is regularly mentioned. (same as a lot of other bits and pieces recognised by I.C.L).
Where clarity is required - is in the relationship between "lockey1963", "I.C.L" and "Walker Locksmiths" (who runs just about the only I.C.L recognised training facility other than the M.L.A.)

Question this:-
Is/was "lockey1963/Pinky" a business partner of "wallaby" ?
Are they effectively between them owning most of the rights to I.C.L. ?
So what if I.C.L. recommends Walker Locksmiths or if Walker Locksmiths recommends I.C.L. ?

There are a number of good Training Centres out there you only need to Google, and then contact those concerned and ask to be able to talk to any of their previous trainees etc for first hand information. Do your own homework and then you'll make your own decisions.

When it comes to lockpicking, you only need to know a couple of picking procedures and purchase a good tool or two - which suits you - go to the shows and get hands on experience. With plenty of practise, and I mean hours and hours, you'll get there. Lockpicking is only a very small part of locksmithing.

I imagine that you would probably like to be taught locksmithing by very experienced general locksmiths who have at least ten years experience in the field, both at bench-work and on the coal face.

So the last question is?
Where do you find experienced locksmiths of such calibre doing training?
They will be few and far between, because being that experienced they will not need to do training to earn a crust.
They will also realise that by training beginners in large numbers, they are just helping to flood the market with inexperienced "locksmiffs" So destroying the locksmith trade.

This lecture could go on for hours, but I'll leave it here ...

[lockey1963]

to answer a few points chris

1) I am not and have never been a business partner of wallaby/dom, i founded icl with him and ran it with him until i stood down from the committee a little while ago.

2) walkers and don braidwoods upvc course are both currently the icl approved courses as currently the only ones that have submitted courses for approval ,I dont believe i advise his training courses , in fact the only training course i ever advise these days is via the mla .

3) I do not own and never have owned any rights to ICL, its name or the icl set up, easily checked and verified , im surprised you havnt as you normally make informed statements, in fact if you dig and do your checking properly, you will find icl is its own entity and not actually owned by anybody.

4) yes i do believe the icl route to be a valid and good one, with most members benefiting from their memberships ,as did you once, just one of us decided to stick with it to try and make it work and turn the negatives to positives, not better than mla route , just different, just because i have ended my watch and retired from committee doesnt mean i no longer believe in the icl and its aims and as such have remained as a member as i benefit exactly the same as every other member does, no more and no less.

so chris , yes i believe in the icl , its aims and its principles , and no i dont and never have owned any part of the icl name , founding and owning are 2 very different things, yes i used to train and push your tools for you, but was never critisised then, funny that, shows i guess the importance of the £. However its of no significance as these false statements serve no real purpose other than to satisfy your ego, as all easily checked and dissmissed.

so my statement still stands i believe the ICL , MLA and ALA routes are all good routes to follow and all offer benefits and progression to their members, for training for anyone starting out i still advise the mla training route over and above all short training courses , and if for any reason you disagree then i think we will have to agree to disagree.

[Chris B]

Evening Martin

So as far as I remember you saying that you said invested a good amount of money into I.C.L. with Dominic in the beginning of setting up I.C.L, you've obviously managed to get your investment back and cleared away the fog.
Good news indeed.

One other question, the advertisement on Tradelocks for Lishi car lock picks seems to infer that you have the sole dealership for Lishi car lock picks, is that correct?

And by the way, I have always appreciated the basic aims of the original I.C.L. ethos, and it's grass roots membership.

[lockey1963]

I have sole rights to and own nothing chris , Tradelocks can do nothing about the old picks, ie old 23 piece set and old decoders, Tradelocks have the exclusive distribution rights to all new lishi tools that now follow since the old sets, so all new updated and new picks, new decoders and new 2 in 1 pick/decoders made by lishi, these tools will only be sold via tradelocks and the distributors that they supply these too worldwide for a lengthy fixed period of time. Outside of this or any future plans you will have to ask them direct.

My own role is only to test the new tools and advise on what new ones are required and to submit my findings as well as initiate and deliver their product training days to their customers allowing those buying the new tools to benefit from them, so again i have no rights to any lishi tools.

To ICL , yes dominic and i both put alot of money , time and energy into setting up icl , and growing it , and no it never repaid the investment financially for me , nor will it for a number of reasons , the main one being legality , in fact it continued to cost in time and commitment, all of which is repaid 10 fold in satisfaction at what was achieved, i stood down as im sure you have been told after ensuring a capable and committed committee were installed who could take it on to the next level, install its constitution, future democratic votes for next committee , exams and shape its future far better than i could, on the whole it has the right team at the helm with the icl and members interests their property, i did all i could and was tired , so left it to those with the energy and desire to take it on to a level i could not now.
So took my place as a committed member, no more or no less, i guess il always be a founder as il also always be a member but never an owner.

im not interested in another game or another session of ego satisfaction, if you want to know anymore about the changes in icl that you dont currently know, then feel free to email me, i believe i always answer these no matter how pitched or better still email the current committee, or ask the committee members that are on your forum as im sure will happily tell you their plans and aspirations , if you want any more details on lishi products other than above id suggest you email david at tradelocks, you have his email as like me involved in debate on projects with them too, which is why i find your question strange, especially as like me all you need to do is email them or phone david yourself for the answers, as will tell you as much as they will tell me as not a secret .

so endeth the game

[mr_chris79]

Chris B?....would that be the infamous Chris B****** who runs courses out of his stately mansion garage?....only kidding Chris!, Sorry to derail the thread guys.... and in case anyones wondering CB Lock tools are the best quality and innovative tools on the market in my personal opinion...

[Chris B]

Good morning Martin

Thank you for offering up so much clarity which has clouded much of the I.C.L. history.
Once the I.C.L. committee has full reins, it is important to your association membership and future members that they understand just who is in charge.
Are the Lishi tools exactly the same as the Lishi tools being sold by Walker, UK Lockpickers, NE Locksmith Supplies?

Morning Mr Chris 79

Stately home? Have you Googled my address? I don't have a garage! I wish I did, several, I need space for all my knick-knacks. I haven't done any training for several years in either my workshop or home, however, we have created a support forum for locksmiths who have purchased our tools so that I can try and help with the minimal of outlay for them.
Over the last year or so we have found that the need for training has calmed down, there are now many many locksmiths who have taught themselves how to pick locks.

[don1]

so my statement still stands i believe the ICL , MLA and ALA routes are all good routes to follow and all offer benefits and progression to their members, for training for anyone starting out i still advise the mla training route over and above all short training courses , and if for any reason you disagree then i think we will have to agree to disagree.

Would you mind going into why you would recommend the mla course over all in a bit of detail?