Duplication Prohibited - do you agree?

[WOT]

Saw this thing somewhere. I disagree. Some smaller landlords use DND blanks or ask to have DND stamped on them but do not have a "company stationary". They'd then be locked out of making copies of their own keys.

I suppose another interpretation of this is to figure out the keyway and bitting, then come in to have a fresh one made by code.

Sans ordinance/regulations, I say the best policy is to ignore the bow stamps and if the blanks are in JET,Ilco or Kustom catalog, then it means duplication permitted.

[Legion303]

On the flip side, "company letterhead" takes about 10 minutes to produce with a computer and printer, so would these guys blindly copy DND keys on restricted blanks?

-steve

[LocksmithArmy]

or the landlord can keep a copy of all his keys(non stamped) for himself and give dnd keys to all tenants, so when he needs a duplicate he just uses his own set

[WOT]

I wonder what they'll tell me if I ask them for a copy of a Best key and argue it says "Duplication Prohibited" not "Do Not Duplicate"

[Tyler J. Thomas]

People bring in "Do Not Duplicate" or "Duplication Prohibited" type keys all the time and we'll cut them all day long as long as they're paying. We're in the business to make money so we definitely don't turn it away. There are no enforcible laws in any jurisdiction that prevents anyone from doing so and for a landlord or property owner hoping to achieve key control on the cheap, well, then I hope they have fun living in their fairy tale world.

People constantly bring in keys that their landlord sold them because they were "restricted". 9 times out of 10 it's an Everest C123/145.

[FarmerFreak]

About once a week or so a customer will come into our shop with a Kustom sc1 do not duplicate headed key covered in tape obviously trying to disguise it. It's fun to see the look on their face when you ask them if they would like the new key to say do not duplicate also. (without pulling the tape back)

[Tyler J. Thomas]

About once a week or so a customer will come into our shop with a Kustom sc1 do not duplicate headed key covered in tape obviously trying to disguise it. It's fun to see the look on their face when you ask them if they would like the new key to say do not duplicate also. (without pulling the tape back)

Haha, I actually caught grief over a similar situation from a fellow employee. Guy was out of town and was getting some DND keys made at our shop and said his local locksmith was stern about not duplicating them unless they could prove they were the original owner.

I said something to the effect of, "You could just always cover it with painters tape and write something like "basement" or "front" and might get away with it."

[Jaakko]

I would copy every key possible as long as it is legal. Putting DND or DP text on a key is like putting a sticker in your car window saying "do not steal". Works great...

[straightpick]

There is only one type of key that, if you are proven to have duplicated it, you WILL be fined and/or go to prison for. That key being the property of the U.S. Postal Service, the key that is used by the mail carriers to open the common access of postal box banks and drop boxes.

I must admit that I sat here with tongue in cheek at reading the responses here about copying keys that are stamped "Do Not Duplicate". While it is true that there is nothing illegal about copying them and they do not carry the force of law, one should exercise some judgement in the matter. Now I am not takling about a Kwikset or a Schlage "C" key. If someone, say, a teenager, came to me with such a key, and I recognise the key as an unusual section, like a Yale 998SG, perhaps the kind that is most likely used in a school's masterkey system, I won't copy the key. Don't have that blank in stock, sorry. I know that that key isn't on his front door. And while it may not be illegal, it would be unethical, at least to my thinking, to not ask for some evidence to support his request. Possession of a key does not indicate rightful ownership. It's just something you get a gut feeling for when you have been the business as long as I have.

I just found it amusing that most will eagerly duplicate anything, no questions asked, yet will willingly point out that we can't talk about this or that - advanced stuff, or you shouldn't pick this if it's not your lock, but will copy a key that may not really be their's! While you may not have done anything illegal, there may still be civil repercussions that you be defending yourself against. (ask O.J.) And if you think talk is cheap, wait until you see a lawyer's bill!

Let the debate begin!

[thelockpickkid]

There is only one type of key that, if you are proven to have duplicated it, you WILL be fined and/or go to prison for. That key being the property of the U.S. Postal Service, the key that is used by the mail carriers to open the common access of postal box banks and drop boxes.

I must admit that I sat here with tongue in cheek at reading the responses here about copying keys that are stamped "Do Not Duplicate". While it is true that there is nothing illegal about copying them and they do not carry the force of law, one should exercise some judgement in the matter. Now I am not takling about a Kwikset or a Schlage "C" key. If someone, say, a teenager, came to me with such a key, and I recognise the key as an unusual section, like a Yale 998SG, perhaps the kind that is most likely used in a school's masterkey system, I won't copy the key. Don't have that blank in stock, sorry. I know that that key isn't on his front door. And while it may not be illegal, it would be unethical, at least to my thinking, to not ask for some evidence to support his request. Possession of a key does not indicate rightful ownership. It's just something you get a gut feeling for when you have been the business as long as I have.

I just found it amusing that most will eagerly duplicate anything, no questions asked, yet will willingly point out that we can't talk about this or that - advanced stuff, or you shouldn't pick this if it's not your lock, but will copy a key that may not really be their's! While you may not have done anything illegal, there may still be civil repercussions that you be defending yourself against. (ask O.J.) And if you think talk is cheap, wait until you see a lawyer's bill!

Let the debate begin!

I do agree to a point, it says DND for a reason, it was intended to discourage duplication, so extra judgement should be used. What I often wonder is how people that you see on ebay or other places can code cut keys and mail them to people and not even think about who the person is, how do they protect themselves. I bring this up because it is basically the same type of thing.

[straightpick]

What I often wonder is how people that you see on ebay or other places can code cut keys and mail them to people and not even think about who the person is, how do they protect themselves. I bring this up because it is basically the same type of thing.

Not quite. You often have to fill a form out for this. You need the code number. And they have all the info they need because payment is usually by credit card. Much more information than someone walking in with a key and paying cash.

[Wizer]

If I can get a blank for a key, I will copy it.
..and some blanks can be modified to fit another lock.
Some keys that were protected few years ago have now blanks in JMA´s and Silca´s catalogues, so I bet those can be copied.
And about a teenager wanting to copy a high security key that could be for some institution, he could be sent out to get it for a sport club or something. It´s not my business to listen to stories about what the lock is used for, and the teen would just go to another keycutting service.
I even have some original abloy blanks for the occasion when someone has lost a key, and wants one just like it (no silca logo, but abloy).
If someone really wants protect their keys from copying, they should invest on some newer locks, or keep the keys safe.
And what about car keys? I never ask whose car is it, just copy it if I can.

[FarmerFreak]

Straightpick If you don't want to duplicate DND stamped keys, then that is your own agenda. But the simple fact is, if you don't then someone else down the road will. Because it isn't illegal, nor should it be. That comment may have made your skin curl....sorry about that, let me explain.

It is just as easy to cover a DND key with tape (labeled moms house), as it is to stamp a key DND. And I'm sure that many of these keys will get cut unnoticed/unintentionally. For this reason they can't be made illegal to cut, this is also the reason why we have patented keys/lock. Patented keys don't have to say anything on the head of the key. They simply can't be duplicated by just anybody, and the few that can duplicate them are under legal contracts by the manufacturers. So it simply doesn't matter if any message is put on the head of the key.

Now there is a question that you should ask yourself. Who is doing the customer/owner of the lock the greater disservice? The locksmith who cuts the DND keys while explaining to every customer that asks about them that they can be cut anywhere, or the locksmith that says that they can't be cut because they say DND on them? I'm not trying to start a nasty argument, this is just a difference of opinion.

I am of the opinion that (even if unintentional) giving a customer (owner of the lock?) the idea that the keys can't be duplicated just because they say so, is a bad idea. Every time I stamp keys with a DND stamp I explain to them that this isn't going to prevent keys from being duplicated. If they really want that kind of key control then they need to step up to a patented key/lock.

I just found it amusing that most will eagerly duplicate anything, no questions asked, yet will willingly point out that we can't talk about this or that - advanced stuff

I think this has more to do with the fact that an average lock picker can't pick a high security lock(can't figure out how?). Where as less than average people have easily figured out how to cover DND headed keys on their own, without any help. Again, I'm not trying to start a nasty argument. This is just my opinion on the matter.

[WOT]

I do agree to a point, it says DND for a reason, it was intended to discourage duplication, so extra judgement should be used. What I often wonder is how people that you see on ebay or other places can code cut keys and mail them to people and not even think about who the person is, how do they protect themselves. I bring this up because it is basically the same type of thing.

That's why we have patents, trademarks and copyright laws.

Copyrighting a bitting is like copyrighting a phone number, nearly impossible.

There are aftermarket components for just about everything imaginable, including security stuff, such as Schlage branded IC Core meant to fit Best levers. This wouldn't have happened while patent was in force.

So, stamping "duplication prohibited" on a key is like stamping "duplication prohibited" on a tire to prevent competitors from using the same tread pattern.

By openly duplicating all unpatented and non-legally protected keys, you're encouraging the use of patented key systems.

[The Speed of Dark]

The question of whether I agree or not is rather ambiguous in that a certain scenario is not given. For example: Am I a Landlord or an employee, a client or perhaps the owner of a business. Each scenario calls for a different answer based upon a contract between the employee and employer or Landlord and his clients. If you sign the paper then you agree to the terms to abide by.... as simple as that.