EVVA 3KS RIM Cylindars on eBay...

[lockinabox]

My suggestion:

Start a new post instead of resurrecting an old one.........

[Squelchtone]

My suggestion:

Start a new post instead of resurrecting an old one.........

I disagree. Too many duplicate posts already about the same lock model or issue on this forum, if the post was 4 years old, yea, I'd agree, but it was last added to in May of this year, that's not that old in the scheme of things.

Post has relevance to the seller who was sketchy at best and has caused far too many of us unnecessary aggravation. He didn't get any complaints because most of us have this lock sitting on our shelf in a collection, most of us didn't actually get around to installing it, so no one has done anything about the wacky tailpiece.

I'm glad the OP took the time to post a nice post with nice pics.

Anyways, onto solving this problem!

What you have in that lock is commonly called a lazy tailpiece which is meant to work with a normal tubular deadbolt mechanism, where you turn the key to lock a bolt, and then you get to turn the key the other way and remove it (without unlocking the bolt in the process)

Segal type locks have this function built in already so the rim cylinder typically has an either horizontal or vertically mounted flat tailpiece protruding from the back of the cylinder.

Our mission: Convert EVVA square rod to a flat tailpiece which does not move.

The dirty way: grind that square tailpiece until it is 1/16 inch thick, grinding from top and bottom so it is centered on the back of the lock. Then drill small hole into back of cap and insert a pin or screw in order to immobilize the square rod from being able to turn freely.

The semi-dirty way: get your hands on a universal rim cylinder tailpiece from a locksmith (or if I mail you one/some) push out the pin holding the cap on the back of the lock, remove cap, and remove rod. Next you will need a Dremel, a bench grinder, and a bench vise. The tailpiece has to be shaped somewhat in order to fit under the cap, the other challenge is to grind down the stub/lazy motion stop that is protruding from the back of the plug once the cap is removed. Next, you have to cut a shallow groove perpendicular to the keyway, right where that stub was, for the new tailpiece to sit in. Why? This will keep the new tailpiece horizontal and stop if from free spinning. Next, put tailpiece on, put the cap on, and grind away any more material needed so that you can put the cam on all the way and drive the original pin back through the cap and plug to hold everything in place.

Here are some pics of my EVVA 3KS and a universal tailpiece so you get a better idea of what I just described.

Large Pic links:
http://highsecurityconsulting.com/Projects/lockparts/EVVA3KS/IMG00408-20091105-1928.jpg
http://highsecurityconsulting.com/Projects/lockparts/EVVA3KS/IMG00409-20091105-1931.jpg
http://highsecurityconsulting.com/Projects/lockparts/EVVA3KS/IMG00410-20091105-1934.jpg
http://highsecurityconsulting.com/Projects/lockparts/EVVA3KS/IMG00411-20091105-1948.jpg

The general idea:


Hope this gives you some ideas, good luck and welcome to Lockpicking101.com

Squelchtone

[Squelchtone]

Another conversion I had to do in a pinch, let's just say it got the job done. (Parts were commercially available to do this without having to cut and chop, but it was the weekend, so supply house was not open)

http://nynex.s5.com/TOOOL-US-Boston/projects/mortise_to_rim_conversion/

Squelchtone

[Artificer]

I'm glad squelchtone agrees with me about the thread relevance. I resurrected this thread because I thought that anyone who had purchased one of these odd cylinders (or was contemplating so doing) and wanted to actually use it (I do agree that it is a beautiful piece of lock porn) would run into the same problem I've been having and would have to (needlessly) duplicate my work. It's interesting that the seller has not a single photo of the tailpiece and claims to not understand why there would be an issue with it.

Squelchtone presents two approaches, both of which would work.

The first idea of grinding the tailpiece down is tricky. Even if one had a milling machine--I don't but can reasonably fake it with a drillpress and a vise moveable via a crank--one could not be reasonably assured of getting the top/bottom thicknesses even and parallel. I think it could be done in a vise with a file and emery paper on a block to keep the edges true, but it's not going to be easy. (Yes, Joseph Bramah did this sort of thing 150 years ago, and I'm very impressed at the quality of the work, but I don't have that level of talent.)

The second approach, however, seems less prone to error. I think, however, I can refine it slightly.

The basic idea is to (a) have the two prongs on the flat tailpiece fit into a groove and (b) remove all play from the lazy tail.

Cutting cut the slot is very doable using a hacksaw and some needle files. (I've done this sort of thing before, and, for me, a small hacksaw provides greater control than a hand-held power tool because I can make multiple passes and go slowly.) My guess is that the interface of the slot and tail is going to be critical, since this is the failure point.

I don't like putting all that force on two small tabs. (Or is the rotational force much less than I'm estimating, and the downward force from the cap more than sufficient to ensure it doesn't move or wear?) Which suggests a few questions:

(a) How critical is the angle (the degree off horizontal/vertical) for the new tailpiece? It obviously must stand reasonably perpendicular to the lock face.

(b) Why wouldn't I want to cut a rectangular tail piece from 1/16" steel that was completely flat across the base instead of having prongs? Or will the end of the key hit my flat cap and that's why the tailpiece has the notch at the end between the two prongs? (I believe that is why the key channel extends back into the cap.) I can leave the arch but make the depth of the fork greater, so as to maximize the surface area the force is spread over. Or would it be better to get a replacement tailpiece from Medeco? Various pricelists set these at two dollars, and I wonder if the steel is a better grade than the typical locksmith replacement. Or does it even matter?

(c) I'm also wondering if it would be a good idea to have a dollop of solder at each tab point and solder the tailpiece onto the lock body. It's removable if necessary, but should give greater rigidity and stability. Just a quick hit with the torch and it's over. Or does this risk damaging the pin mechanism?

Squelchtone -- thank you for the photos and outline; they gave me (and anyone else who wants to do home surgery on the 3KS) an excellent roadmap.

[Squelchtone]

Glad I could be of help.

I wasn't sure if you had access to stock materials, so yeah, you don't need a fancy pants tailpiece, any flat long piece of steel or even aluminum will do. I like the idea of a hacksaw being used, just dont go too deep, as if you do it will go into the hole that the retaining pin slides into.

As for having a little play in the tailpiece vs. having it soldered/welded solid to the back of the lock, my opinion is to leave some play. You have several independent mechanical systems coupled together, I'd leave some slop in the system, so the cylinder isnt putting unwanted stress onto the lock mechanism, and vice versa.

Take many pics and keep us posted!
Squelchtone

[Artificer]

I just had another idea. We may be overthinking this. (I've done postgraduate work in overthinking and overengineering.)

Why not attack this problem from the OTHER end?

What's wrong with flattening the end of the square post with a file and welding/brazing a stub of a standard flat tail onto it? That's easier than thinning the post because one only needs one side to be accurage.

Or--better yet!--chop down the end of the post to a stub, cutting a notch into center of the end that stub, and then epoxying/welding/brazing/soldering a regular flat tail into that notch.

The cylinder has a little wobble for the shaft, so the positioning doesn't have to be perfect for it to still fit into the deadbolt shroud, right?

I think I like solder for this task; that way if I need to change the length of the tail I can easily undo it and easily put in a new length of tail.

Or is the lazy tail going to cause problems and I'll have out-clevered myself?

[Squelchtone]

Lazy tail won't cause problems as much as it will be very weird to lock and unlock the lock because you'll have to turn it more than 360 degrees every time. As long as you don't mind it opening different than every other lock you've ever used, then you'll be all set. but come home drunk it may take you some time to open the door.

Squelchtone

[Artificer]

Lazy tail won't cause problems as much as it will be very weird to lock and unlock the lock because you'll have to turn it more than 360 degrees every time.

Ooooh, that sounds cumbersome!

How about if I permanently fix the post to the collar? I can solder this in place or use a tension pin.

[Squelchtone]

Lazy tail won't cause problems as much as it will be very weird to lock and unlock the lock because you'll have to turn it more than 360 degrees every time.

Ooooh, that sounds cumbersome!

How about if I permanently fix the post to the collar? I can solder this in place or use a tension pin.

Now you're using your noggin.
t
ake retaining pin out, remove cap and look at the shape of the tailpiece and how it interacts with the motion stop. if you were to fashion a metal plate to match the space from the motion stop to the tailpiece, you would stop the tailpiece from being able to turn. take a coin washer or something already round and of the same diameter and cut it in half, then file out the inside to match the shape to make it fit so it is sitting flat on the back of the plug, you'll know what I mean when you take the cap off and see how the tailpiece rotates against the back of the lock.

or you could do the simple way and solder/epoxy tailpiece to cap like you said.

good night,
Squelchtone

[Artificer]

if you were to fashion a metal plate to match the space from the motion stop to the tailpiece, you would stop the tailpiece from being able to turn. take a coin washer or something already round and of the same diameter and cut it in half, then file out the inside to match the shape to make it fit so it is sitting flat on the back of the plug...

Aha! That's almost perfect.

The washer won't fit underneath the cap because there isn't enough space. (I could file down the top of the base of the post, but that's just too much intricate work, and that's what I was trying to avoid with the major surgery.) So it must go on top. A triangular file could easily put a square into the center of a washer that was the right size. The washer needs to be (permanently) affixed to the cap, and in such a way that repetitive movement won't crack it loose. (Solder will be better than epoxy.)

The post likely can't be fixed in place without verifying the position of the tail. (I think perpendicular to the key hole is what's required, but I'll have to get a deadbolt and check. This is why solder is nice; wrong position, just heat it up and move it.)

I'll see what I can work up as a procedure, and post photos of the surgery, just in case anyone wants to use one of these in a lock. I'll need to cogitate on this for a few days and take everything apart, and get a spare (heavy duty) tail.

Thanks again for all the help, Squelchtone.

[weerwolf]

My email to Evva has, as expected, gone unanswered. (It has a few general-purpose email address lists on its Website, and my suspicion is they are so filled with spam as to be unusable and thus discarded unread.) I'm going to write the the British and Australian distributors--there are no US or Canadian distributors--and see if I can purchase new tails. If Medeco sells new tails for $2 apiece, I can't see Evva selling tails for much more. It appears to be held in place with either a snap ring or two tension pins.

A different tailpiece wouldn't fit. In the pictures the pin that holds the tailpiece goes in from the side. The normal rim cylinder tailpiece has the pin from top to bottom.

[Artificer]

I'm going to write the the British and Australian distributors--there are no US or Canadian distributors--and see if I can purchase new tails. ... It appears to be held in place with either a snap ring or two tension pins.

A different tailpiece wouldn't fit. In the pictures the pin that holds the tailpiece goes in from the side. The normal rim cylinder tailpiece has the pin from top to bottom.

[/quote]

While I fully believed Weerwolf, I was curious how different the tail assemblies were as it might be possible to do a retrofit of some sort with a little filing. A quick review of the Evva catalog reveals, on page 11, that the profile of the normal rim cylinders is 3.4mm, just deep enough to accommodate the retaining clip in the square-shaft police-lock version but too shallow, it seems, to allow a side-mounted pin. The backs appear to have been machined differently.

Weerwolf has just saved everyone who was inclined to attempt to buy a new tailpiece--instead of physically modifying the lock to accept a flat tail and stop the lazy-tail rotation--the trouble of trying to track down a tail from Evva headquarters or a distributor.

This lock cylinder clearly is a white elephant designed to torment the unwary. (Ok, ok, it's a white elephant designed for a very specific application.)

I'll have some time in the next few days to perform the tail transplant and will post my results.