Size matters?

[impossibleman]

I was taking in an introductory course offered by someone who works in the security field. The course included a basic hook/curved pick and torsion wrench. I brought my own lock. While inspecting the locks the students used, he remarked that mine would work, but it "would be harder." I felt better about failing to open it, but I am beginning to wonder if the problem is that the hook I use needs to be smaller. Does this problem arise much, or am I just not very good yet?

[globallockytoo]

I dare say, someone working in the security field is more often NOT going to train someone to pick locks. Aside from it being unethical, it is gross negligence unless you are training to be a locksmith, professionally.

As a hobby, like here, that is different in my opinion.

It's not size that matters, it's what you do with it that's important.

[impossibleman]

I think if you knew the circumstances you would find your suspicions confirmed about the ethics. I'll fill you in if it's interesting to you. As for myself I'll come clean and admit that I'm trying to live up to the false ideal of a magician who can actually pick locks. But I can rarely handle anything beyond cheap filing cabinet type locks, and I know my technique is the likely culprit. So I thought that a face-to-face lesson would help. Silly me! Who knew that 15 other people would show up for the event? Can you say "hacker community?"

Thanks for the other info, too.

[Solomon]

While inspecting the locks the students used, he remarked that mine would work, but it "would be harder." I felt better about failing to open it, but I am beginning to wonder if the problem is that the hook I use needs to be smaller. Does this problem arise much, or am I just not very good yet?

A short hook can be used to open the majority of locks, so I doubt that's it. In saying that though, if there was an erratic hi-lo pin stack configuration it'd be a lot trickier (and he'd be able to tell that from the key). It was most likely to do with the type of lock though. What kind of lock was it? Make and model please.

And welcome to the forums!

[impossibleman]

Thanks!

It's a Master, not sure if this is the model, but No. 1 is stamped on the bottom. Also, X2160, which is inked in. Don't know the term, but I'm guessing it's NOT the serial number, it relates to the key, right?

Does a hook pick have to be narrow enough to fit into the keyway without moving any pins until you work it against them? It seems I can't insert it without raking the pins slightly. Maybe I shouldn't have any tension on the lock until I insert it.

I just plain don't have the touch yet, either, I'm sure.

[unlisted]

Well, take a look around the forums and read the FAQ's - there is quite a few tutorials there I am sure will assist you with your troubles.

And welcome to the forums as well.

[LocksmithArmy]

a picture of you elegid short hook would help... if it cang go in a master #1 without touching the pins it likely is too tall...

not saying it wont work in the least... it could likely be the pick needed especially if you have those hi low bitting patterns... but most short hooks can fit in just fine without touching the pins... and if the tensor is too fat and you are using bottom tension... you may have the correct hook... but a bad tensor... try somthing alittle thinner... or top tension if possible

but pictures can help us narrow it down... pictures of the tools and the tools in the lock.

[impossibleman]

That was someone else that called it a short hook. I believe it is just an average size. Pics up soon as I get the chance, thanks!

[Solomon]

Thanks!

It's a Master, not sure if this is the model, but No. 1 is stamped on the bottom. Also, X2160, which is inked in. Don't know the term, but I'm guessing it's NOT the serial number, it relates to the key, right?

Does a hook pick have to be narrow enough to fit into the keyway without moving any pins until you work it against them? It seems I can't insert it without raking the pins slightly. Maybe I shouldn't have any tension on the lock until I insert it.

I just plain don't have the touch yet, either, I'm sure.

Yeah it'll be a master #1 then. It's a 4 pin padlock with all standard pins. Those laminated steel masters all use the same core so they're all the same lock when it comes to picking, and they're considered beginner locks, so maybe when he said yours would be harder he was talking about the bitting on the key. If not, I guess it could have been the pick you were using. Is it a home made pick? I guess we'll just have to see it... make sure to put something next to it for scale. And chuck the key into the pic aswell for good measure!

To answer your other question, yes, the pick should be able to fit in there without contacting any of the pins. If you're tensioning from the side of the keyway opposite the pins it's harder to avoid this because you're limiting your space, but it's a master lock so in all honesty it really shouldn't make much difference unless your pick is really huge.

[impossibleman]

Here they are. First is a photo of the pick, key, and a ruler for scale. Second one is a shot of the lock, little out of focus. If we need better I can fuss later with my macro mode more.

Thanks!

[raimundo]

I don't see your tension wr.
many beginner problems are with tensors, the fit and suitability of a particular tensor for that keyway and the size, stiffness, etc,

and the single common difficulty for beginners is getting the tension right, light,

and a little sanding along the top edge of that pickshaft will probably dull the fine toothed saw there.

[impossibleman]

Yes, I didn't come up with a pic of the wrench yet. I'll have it a little later. Thanks!

[Solomon]

I'm with ray, it's more than likely a tension problem. That short hook will do the job just fine... you need to get a feel for the lock to see how much force you need to turn the plug, and make sure the tensioner you're using is applying torque evenly. Sometimes the torque isn't even enough to bind pins properly and it can make picking more difficult than it should be. I have plenty of locks which will open easily with a certain tensioner (and placed a certain way), but with other variations they seem next to impossible. Play around a bit and experiment!

As for how much tension to apply, with padlocks like this, you need just enough to counteract the spring return and a tiny bit more on top of that. Most of the laminated steel masters I've encountered have had loose plugs though, so you'll probably have to vary your tension up and down a little depending on how the pins are behaving... you'll get the feel for that after you get it picked a couple of times, so don't worry.

Also, try picking it counter-clockwise. Most of them are less problematic that way.

[impossibleman]

Thanks, everyone. I took a very small homemade half-diamond and cut it down to a hook shape. This pick does move freely in the keyway, and I can interact with the pins in the usual way now. I'm still not good with this lock, but I can feel the difference and start learning.

Wish I had learned the basics years ago, but had neither the tools nor the information. Oh well, there's no gift like the present.