Key Programmers and Code Cutting

[FarmerFreak]

Michael Hyde (the auto guru) at http://www.michealhyde.com prices 10 MVP tokens at $410.00. That's $41.00 each.

ElAbogado, yes you can purchase tokens at 41.00 a piece. You're not wrong, you're just ignoring the other price points.

I'm not sure what the logical reasoning is for purchasing 10 tokens at a time would be. If someone spent the money on buying the programmer then they should seriously consider getting enough tokens, that when they finally go through them all. The programmer is more than paid off.

Instead of buying a small amount (10), get 250 at 2,750.00 which amounts to $11.00 a token.

[eppiotic]

You can buy more tokens and pay less. I think for 250 tokens is $2750. So thats just under 11 dollars per use. I personally don't see a reason not to buy them at that price, but we do a ton of volume.

And if the software is anything like the TKO, or the NGS when you buy an update its for a particular system of a specific car company. Like Ford PATS 4. And even though your system may not say you can do it doesn't mean you can't. We run cars all the time that our machine doesn't say we can do, but we just run it under whatever has the same system as the car in question. If the machine is capable of the process there shouldnt be a reason to update it until a new software title comes out thats supporting a new system.

Does AD not work this way? If so Id like to know.

[ElAbogado]

Michael Hyde (the auto guru) at http://www.michealhyde.com prices 10 MVP tokens at $410.00. That's $41.00 each.

ElAbogado, yes you can purchase tokens at 41.00 a piece. You're not wrong, you're just ignoring the other price points.

I'm not sure what the logical reasoning is for purchasing 10 tokens at a time would be. If someone spent the money on buying the programmer then they should seriously consider getting enough tokens, that when they finally go through them all. The programmer is more than paid off.

Instead of buying a small amount (10), get 250 at 2,750.00 which amounts to $11.00 a token.

The real danger in buying 250 tokens is that it is just like cash money inside the machine. Should anything happen to the machine, you lose not just the machine, but $2,750 worth of tokens as well. Net loss could be more than $4,000.00 should the machine grow feet and walk away. Buying a smaller quantity is more costly, but limits your exposure should something bad happen to the programmer. On the other hand, buying the T300 eliminates the token issue and limits the potential loss to the cost of the machine, under $200.00.

Many smaller locksmiths don't do that many key programmings, so 10 tokens is a lot for them. It's a trade off of value vs. security.

[FarmerFreak]

The real danger in buying 250 tokens is that it is just like cash money inside the machine. Should anything happen to the machine, you lose not just the machine, but $2,750 worth of tokens as well.

That's a good point. I'm not in control of transferring the tokens to the machine, but I know that excess tokens are kept online. I remember when we bought the original MVP, we could only put 200 tokens on the machine and the extras stayed online. Now I believe, though I am not sure, that you have the option of only putting as many tokens on the machine as you see fit. Which could help minimize the loss of a stolen machine. But yeah, a stolen machine is always a bad thing.

Many smaller locksmiths don't do that many key programmings, so 10 tokens is a lot for them. It's a trade off of value vs. security.

I see your point. But to be realistic, tokens aside. Why would a locksmith invest in any programmer without the demand to use it very often? Are they trying to lose money? Unless they are not planning on making much money off of the programmer, but plan to use it to build a larger customer base and eventually get other work. Which could indirectly pay for the machine...just a thought. It seems like a sketchy plan though.

[MarkC]

Excuse my ignorance because I'm still quite new -- I haven't done any auto work that involves transponders. I was looking up the specs for the MVP Pro because it seems like an all-in-one solution. What else is needed other than this setup? I noticed the applications guide mentioned some vehicles needing PIN codes. I'm not even sure what this means. Could you guys enlighten me?

Mark

[wheresmykeys?]

Does anyone use the Hotwire programming I have been in contact with them and it sounds good but it is coming from their mouth and i would like to hear someone else input on the programming setup.

[2octops]

I had one. It works very well but they are slow about getting new software on the market.

Look at MVP Pro.

[lunchb0x]

Michael Hyde (the auto guru) at http://www.michealhyde.com prices 10 MVP tokens at $410.00. That's $41.00 each.

ElAbogado, yes you can purchase tokens at 41.00 a piece. You're not wrong, you're just ignoring the other price points.

I'm not sure what the logical reasoning is for purchasing 10 tokens at a time would be. If someone spent the money on buying the programmer then they should seriously consider getting enough tokens, that when they finally go through them all. The programmer is more than paid off.

Instead of buying a small amount (10), get 250 at 2,750.00 which amounts to $11.00 a token.

The real danger in buying 250 tokens is that it is just like cash money inside the machine. Should anything happen to the machine, you lose not just the machine, but $2,750 worth of tokens as well. Net loss could be more than $4,000.00 should the machine grow feet and walk away. Buying a smaller quantity is more costly, but limits your exposure should something bad happen to the programmer. On the other hand, buying the T300 eliminates the token issue and limits the potential loss to the cost of the machine, under $200.00.

Many smaller locksmiths don't do that many key programmings, so 10 tokens is a lot for them. It's a trade off of value vs. security.

I haven't had to buy tokens for a while but I believe that you can buy in bulk but you don't have to put all of them onto the machine, so say you buy 200 tokens, load 50 on to the MVP and if it goes missing you only loose the tokens from the Machine.

Global, I agree that AD do charge a lot for their machines but we also charge a lot to do the job, so even though we have to outlay a lot for the machine and the software it pays itself of quickly. You do know that they put a lot into R and D too right? it's not cheap to pull apart new cars to reverse engineer them to work out how us locksmiths can make keys to the cars, I think that justify's the cost to us.

[globallockytoo]

@lunchbox

In Australia, the locksmith industry is way more professional than the USA (from what I have seen and heard - the last 5 years). The locksmith trade is a profession with professional training and an industry that protects itself reasonably. Locksmiths who do auto there, generally understand the trade and the training required to become a professional and usually charge prices that underscore the training and expertise of the profession.

Here in the USA, it is a vastly different animal. The trade has refused to protect itself and the manufacturers and distributors decided to bypass the locksmiths and sell direct to the end users, including mechanics and other auto industry related trades. this directly dilutes the value of the locksmith profession causing far too many untrained and inexperienced cowboys to "roam the plains". It has caused an unfair price war and the quantity of scam advertisements has further perplexed the industry to the point where the customer gets ripped off terribly.

I cant get half of what the dealership charges for a transponder key (originate) and I will come to the customer and have the job completed usually in a fifth of the time the average dealer takes. this doesnt include getting the vehicle towed to the dealership, being without the vehicle for a day and the inconvenience this all causes (to your job, your schedule, your family etc). I can spend money advertising for no ROI. I understand why the scammers advertise such low prices to "bait" customers and then "switch" the prices when the customer has contracted them. Ethics and morals have left the trade here, far too long ago. The marketplace (consumers) cannot trust locksmiths anymore as a consequence.

If I had the choice, I would prefer to work in Australia, where the trade respects itself.

[minifhncc]

If I had the choice, I would prefer to work in Australia, where the trade respects itself.

May I ask, why did you move to the US in the first place? I'm sure you had good reasons. I'm just curious because it seems you were good at what you did in Australia as well.

[globallockytoo]

If I had the choice, I would prefer to work in Australia, where the trade respects itself.

May I ask, why did you move to the US in the first place? I'm sure you had good reasons. I'm just curious because it seems you were good at what you did in Australia as well.

My missus got transferred here.

[minifhncc]

My missus got transferred here.

Transferred as in for school, or work?

[globallockytoo]

My missus got transferred here.

Transferred as in for school, or work?

work

[g_kinz]

im with a locksmith and we use the hotwire and a 3d pro and I love the equipment. we use the 3d pro almost exclusive, and the hotwire on about 95% of the cars we do. we also have a tcode pro MVP and a ZED BULL. we use the ZED BULL just to identify transponders and program VW. have only used the MVP once and that was for a mazda because the bypass dongle for hotwire broke ($400 to replace). so with thats said hotwire will do most of the cars on the road and the 3d pro is really easy to use and versatile. I'm planning on doing my own locksmith business and I was looking at the Knock offs and decided its better to get the real stuff over the copys.

[gunbunny119]

Hello Lunchbox.

Regarding your quote...

"Global, I agree that AD do charge a lot for their machines but we also charge a lot to do the job, so even though we have to outlay a lot for the machine and the software it pays itself of quickly. You do know that they put a lot into R and D too right? it's not cheap to pull apart new cars to reverse engineer them to work out how us locksmiths can make keys to the cars, I think that justify's the cost to us."

THAT in itself, is why I have such a problem with AD. They come up with their product by reverse-engineering and making a MASSIVE profit by doing so. By the way, they usually get it by reverse-engineering the dealer machines more than the cars themselves. In turn, the Chinese reverse-engineer their product (which in itself is a result of reverse-engineering, ie..stealing). They in turn, pass judgement on the locksmith for not paying their ridiculously inflated fees. Of course, they claim your money pays for their "spectacular support" (If I want to be neglected, ignored, spoken rudely to, and pick pocketed, my wife will do it for free). If they want the locksmith industry to buy into their business model, they need to back it up with service..which they don't. Otherwise, to quote one of my kids' cartoon movies "Anytime you steal something, you spend your whole life trying to keep it."

For a big-city large production shop, it seems so simple to buy 250 tokens at a time but that's not feasible for everyone. I am a small town locksmith in a town of approx 1000. There is nobody else within 2 hours that can program keys. It's not a matter of me competing with established locksmiths by buying a cheap machine and poaching, but for me to buy an AD machine new will NEVER pay off. To assume that if you can afford the machine, you can afford the tokens, (which might have been someone else saying so) don't forget that AD leases this machine to make it more attractive to a small business owner like myself. When I'm in the market for a machine, I will do everything I can to find a legal version, but used. I know that AD will be happy to take me to court for using a stolen version of their stolen technology, so I will go legal whenever I can find one.

Just thought i'd give you the perspective to a small town guy who is FED UP with AD and their lack of customer service.