Suggestions and Advice for Kwikset and Schlage

[SALocksmith]

Hello,

Im an apprentice Locksmith in San Antonio, Texas. I've been in the field for about 2 yrs. Im a novice picker. I need to get better at Non destructive entry methods. Mostly, for residential and commercial lockouts. This means I need to be proficient at kwikset and schlage especially.

Im pretty good at Kwikset, for the most part. I practice regularly on a 5 pin cylinder I have. However when I use a more challenging bitting array, something like 61616 I just can't seem to pick this lock. I've recently read some guides on "single pin picking", as I admit I mostly used the rake and get lucky method in the past, but im trying to move beyond this. Yesterday I did the Digital Blue exercise and it was very helpful. However, as much as I try I still could not defeat the above pin bitting.

I also, generally have a much harder time with Schlage. I was hoping for some tips and suggestions. Also, what is the best way to go with these locks as a rule? SPP or Rake? What are some good bitting arrangments I could try that are easy, moderate, and difficult. I've been practicing with 61635 and find it moderately difficult on kwikset.

[Klaiviel]

SALocksmith, for a Kwikset with a bitting like that I would first try raking it with an S-Rake http://www.lockpickshop.com/MP-12.html and then I would try to SPP any pins that remain if raking wasn't enough using a short hook.

As for Schlage's see my post in this thread viewtopic.php?f=8&t=47581 in it I explain my method for defeating Schlage locks. Btw tools used in this method are just standard torsion wrench and standard short hook.

[Schuyler]

Schlages simply have tighter tolerances than kwiksets, so they're going to be a bit tougher as a rule. However, once you get the basics of single pin picking down, and defeating hi-low combinations like the one you referenced, you'll be popping them consistently.

The big problem with such a dramatic bitting is the low-high change. Getting under the low pin to set the high pin, without oversetting the low one, is a classic problem in lockpicking. You'll get better at it, but a really bad one, deep in a lock, can stymie even very experienced pickers. For this problem, specifically, I would suggest you get yourself some Deforest picks and a falle-style deep curve. These are both perfect for attacking hi-low combos. Knowing the best use for each of the tools in your collection will help a lot once you start to understand the topography of the locks you're working on.

I suggest getting really solid with Single Pin Picking before you commit to raking too much, but a Large S will also help in more dramatic bitting situations. If you can find one, an agressive L rake (most normal American ones are pretty timid in my opinion) can also do the trick against more complex bittings.

[SALocksmith]

I do have several HPC pick's at my disposal. S-Rake, Hook, Double Ball, Single Ball, Small Diamond, and 3 different tension wrench. I've also got a couple of stainless steel looking HPC pick's that appear to be higher quality, I inherited these, they are different from the others, the s-rake appears to be inverted, and the other one is a long, skinny "Rake" with a slightly curved tip. They are unique compared to the other "standard" picks. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the "Binding order". Does this mean if I have 4 pins set and the 5th refuses to set, I must let them all drop and try a different order? or what if I have 3 set and can't seem to get either of the other 2 to "set". I Guess I don't have to worry about "False sets" with kwikset and schlage correct ? Unless someone has put security pins in them. During the digital blue exercise, I noticed that quickly moving the rake pick up and down sometimes will pop a lock very quickly, especially with 2-4 pins, this works with even a broke off pick, or a completely "flat" pick. It seems to also be effective in the final "stage" of poping the lock. This was an interesting find for me, as i've never been taught that.

[Josh K]

I do have several HPC pick's at my disposal. S-Rake, Hook, Double Ball, Single Ball, Small Diamond, and 3 different tension wrench. I've also got a couple of stainless steel looking HPC pick's that appear to be higher quality, I inherited these, they are different from the others, the s-rake appears to be inverted, and the other one is a long, skinny "Rake" with a slightly curved tip. They are unique compared to the other "standard" picks.

Pictures would be great.

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the "Binding order". Does this mean if I have 4 pins set and the 5th refuses to set, I must let them all drop and try a different order? or what if I have 3 set and can't seem to get either of the other 2 to "set".

Binding order is simply the order in which the pins set. Apply torsion / tension to the plug and look for the first binding pin. Set it and move on to the next binding pin. Myself I don't notice as much as which one binds as which one sets up first.

I Guess I don't have to worry about "False sets" with kwikset and schlage correct ? Unless someone has put security pins in them. During the digital blue exercise, I noticed that quickly moving the rake pick up and down sometimes will pop a lock very quickly, especially with 2-4 pins, this works with even a broke off pick, or a completely "flat" pick. It seems to also be effective in the final "stage" of poping the lock. This was an interesting find for me, as i've never been taught that.

I love false sets and security pins. I don't know about anyone else, but getting that 10* plug rotation is great.

If you're simply opening locks to make a buck instead of doing it as a hobby, try raking the lock for 10-20 seconds and then single pin picking anything that didn't set.

[globallockytoo]

61616 is not a hard combination to pick unless you are SPP 'ing...I would use a pick gun or bump key if that combination existed (but it almost never does or will - in the field)

I have never been a proponent of binding orders because usually every lock will bind differently.

The best option is to practise 1, then 2, then 3, then 4, then 5 pin picking techniques and continue to practise this with different depths in each chamber - that way you will get an idea as to a general rule.

[Eyes_Only]

On a bitting array as pronounced as 61616 I use a Peterson Gem pick. It's the fourth one down on the left column, http://peterson-international.com/picks ... steel.html

The curve on the Gem is a little more steeper so it can help in setting smaller pins located behind longer pins without upsetting any longer pins that's closer to the front of the lock. I use it for practice on higher quality commercial mortice cylinders like Sargent and Corbin where I intentionally pin it to really exaggerated bittings that totally violate MACS just for the challenge.

And compared to the Postal pick the Gem is a little smaller so you can more easily move the pick around most locks you may encounter in the field. Might be a little tricky on a Schalge but still possible with some practice. But of course you normally wont run into a lock with such exaggerated pinning that violate MACS out in the field. I certainly never had.

[Klaiviel]

I Guess I don't have to worry about "False sets" with kwikset and schlage correct ? Unless someone has put security pins in them.

This is incorrect most Schlage's I run across have 4 spools and 1 normal pin, so on Schlage's false sets can be a problem. I have not run into any Kwikset's with security pins.

But of course you normally wont run into a lock with such exaggerated pinning that violate MACS out in the field. I certainly never had.

Dumb question, what is MACS I have repeatedly run into this term on this forum and on my depth and spacing charts. Can someone please explain? Thanks.

[Josh K]

I Guess I don't have to worry about "False sets" with kwikset and schlage correct ? Unless someone has put security pins in them.

This is incorrect most Schlage's I run across have 4 spools and 1 normal pin, so on Schlage's false sets can be a problem. I have not run into any Kwikset's with security pins.

But of course you normally wont run into a lock with such exaggerated pinning that violate MACS out in the field. I certainly never had.

Dumb question, what is MACS I have repeatedly run into this term on this forum and on my depth and spacing charts. Can someone please explain? Thanks.

MACS stands for Maximum Adjacent Cut Specification.

http://lockpickernetwork.wikidot.com/un ... ey-bitting

[Schuyler]

Klaiviel - Schlages seem to be pretty hit-or-miss regarding security pins. I personally have never come across one, but I've also never purchased a Schlage commercially. I've owned hundreds over the years, though, and never encountered one. I trust that they are there because I've read here or there over the years that people have run into them, but I know I'm not alone in not coming across any.

Also - SA - seriously consider getting yourself some DeForests. You'll love them. It's a type of pick, by the way, not a brand.

[Eyes_Only]

I'll second what Schuyler posted. I ran into spool drivers in every Schlage locks anyone can buy from hardware stores that most homes will use but rarely ever on those sold for commercial purposes from locksmith supply companies like US Lock, HL Flake and others, unless the lockie to installed them added it themselves afterwards.

I suppose it was a good thing in that it made my life easier when I got called to service Schlage Everest cylinders from time to time. Without any security drivers the Everest picks over easy.

[SALocksmith]

Thanks, Guys, I really appreciate the feedback. I will look into this peterson and deforest pick. I don't see to many residential schlage down here in Texas with security pins. I wonder if it's a regional thing. I know you tend to see more high security locks up north, as there are genuine "Cat burglars" up there. In the south, you get a thug that will kick your door in, up north you get people who actually know what they are doing.

I realize that 61616 is not going to happen out in the field, but I still sometimes run across a Kwikset that I have a hard time with, and im trying to find a bitting array that represents "worst case scenario" for in the field practice. If someone has a suggestion i'd like to try it. I have not messed to much with bumping, I think I will cut a few bump keys to play with sometime next week. I don't have a pick gun currently, I've tried one a few times before but I never had much luck with it. I've been told that I was applying tension incorrectly with it. That is another question I have, I realize how important tension is and that it should be used as lightly as possible to bind the pins, but are there situations when it's best to let up on the tension "mid-picK" can you let up on it quickly without losing "set" pins? I used to think you should constantly maintain the same amount of tension, but during my practice it seems as if i've been able to almost let off the tension completely without losing "set" pins.

[Schuyler]

You'll find yourself varying tension dramatically as you pick. It doesn't have to, and often shouldn't be, perfectly consistent.

[Klaiviel]

I'll second what Schuyler posted. I ran into spool drivers in every Schlage locks anyone can buy from hardware stores that most homes will use but rarely ever on those sold for commercial purposes from locksmith supply companies like US Lock, HL Flake and others, unless the lockie to installed them added it themselves afterwards.

I can confirm this, at least in my case. All Schlage locks I have had the opportunity to play with have been purchased from the hardware store.

[loki-aka]

I have seen some consumer packaged Schlage with and without spool drivers. Some of the consumer packaging even advertises the presence of "security pins".

As standard practice, I usually add a few spool drivers if the OEM unit does not include them. I would never exceed four spools, in any case.

Also, it is good practice to keep your stacks balanced.