Anti drill chemical/pyrotechnic relocker

[98AB49DC5A]

in many safes if you try to drill through the door to get at the lock once you get through the layers of concrete with embedded silicon carbide chips you will find one last obastacle in your way, a flimsy cheap little tempered glass plate. the problem is that if you drill through the plate it shatters and releases a spring loaded secondary lock. now even the correct combination won't open the safe.

What I propose is to apply that same principle to ordinary door cylinders. essentially there would be a white phosphorus plate hermetically sealed into the front of the plug/cylinder behind the drill protection. As soon as you hit the plate the phosphorus reacts with the oxygen in the air and lights the fuse which in some way relocks the cylinder ( maybe a small thermite charge near the cam) so that instead of having to drill the shear line or the pins or sidebar you now have to drill through the entire plug to get to the cam which has been welded in place. alternatively it could just weld the cylinder to the lock body which would have a similar effect.

[jwhou]

I like this idea. My own idea was glass pins pressure filled with marker dyes such that a lock bump or tampering would cause the dye to spray out the keyhole hopefully marking the perpetrator and leaving definitive evidence of tampering. I wasn't thinking so much of relocking as I was of leaving evidence of tampering, after all insurance will only cover theft if the lock shows evidence of tampering.

[Evan]

I dunno guys...

Thermite in a lock to seal it ? What guarantee is there that when it lights up enough sparks won't fly out of the front of the cylinder to ignite any flammables near the door, carpeting being the one with the biggest probability of being there within range...

Why you would want to weld the lock to the lock case is confusing... Now instead of just a cylinder to replace, you are involving the lock case itself which can costs hundreds of dollars on a fire rated door with a Grade 1 lock set installed...

As far as the glass pins with dye to mark a key used for bumping and possibly the person using it, umm, if you design a glass vial to be broken by a bump key then it would definitely shatter if someone slammed the door on purpose or it got caught in the wind and slammed... I have seen rogue wind gusts break a door closer arm and put enough force on a door to snap 1/4-20 machine screws used on the hinges to secure them to a metal door frame... Sounds to me like severe abuse or extreme environmental conditions would trigger the dye without any attempt to tamper with the lock being involved...

~~ Evan

[Rickthepick]

id fit a protec

[98AB49DC5A]

When I say thermite charge I mean about 5 grams total. that would be enough slag to lock the cylinder up. there might be a tiny bit that gets out. I'd be more worried about the high temperature smoke produced by the burning white phosphorus(Now I understand why it was used in antipersonnel grenades). anyways if anyone else has an idea for a compound that would react either to ambient air or to two compounds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_liquid) that react vigorously when mixed that would be great as white phosphorus is definitely not a possibility.

You would also have to adress the possibility of the attacker freezing the lock so that the relocker doesen't activate when drilled. I think that using the different contraction rates of glass and metal could work. given a two part relocker with two compounds one of which(b) is encapsulated, if the b capsules are packed in tightly given that they have a different rate of contraction than the metal around them, hopefully less both negative internal pressure and negative external pressure cause the glass bubble or whatever it is to collapse releasing B into A and trigering the relocker. alternatively for more control the same sort of thing could be done except with a blasting cap/primer/fuse(whatever you call them)(Wow just spent 3 hrs looking a wiki articles on firearms) anyways yeah. use different expansion/sontraction rates to force a low contraction material to piece a primer and ignite re-locker before it is rendered inactive due to low temperature.

[unlisted]

5 grammes? :O

Try 1-2 grammes at most..


Trust me on this.. I've been using the stuff legally for years.

[jwhou]

I dunno guys...
...
As far as the glass pins with dye to mark a key used for bumping and possibly the person using it, umm, if you design a glass vial to be broken by a bump key then it would definitely shatter if someone slammed the door on purpose or it got caught in the wind and slammed... I have seen rogue wind gusts break a door closer arm and put enough force on a door to snap 1/4-20 machine screws used on the hinges to secure them to a metal door frame... Sounds to me like severe abuse or extreme environmental conditions would trigger the dye without any attempt to tamper with the lock being involved...

~~ Evan

Good point Evan. There isn't always a clear dividing line between the effects of normal use and the effects of tampering but I would say that slamming the door would be a lateral impact against the walls of the bore hole so a few metal rings would take care of that (indeed most of the pin would probably be metal to resist the shear and it would just take a small fragile section sensitive to up and down shock to release the dye) and many of the highest security applications are internal doors which are not subject to high winds or extremes in temperature. Glass dye filled pins may not be a perfect solution but they may have their place.

Would a dye marker concept be restricted to a pin concept. If there's enough room in the keyway could something be placed deep in the keyway which would react to the rapid impact of a bump key? Maybe a small hydraulic shock absorber filled with a non-newtonian liquid thereby compressing during normal use allowing the key to enter as it should but becoming rigid when impacted suddenly preventing a bump key from being bumped in. Such a shock absorber might even be a specially formulated rubber plug that is rigid upon impact but otherwise more malleable than well chewed bubblegum, sorta like a cornstarch or tapioca play doh.

[Evan]

When I say thermite charge I mean about 5 grams total. that would be enough slag to lock the cylinder up. there might be a tiny bit that gets out. I'd be more worried about the high temperature smoke produced by the burning white phosphorus(Now I understand why it was used in antipersonnel grenades). anyways if anyone else has an idea for a compound that would react either to ambient air or to two compounds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_liquid) that react vigorously when mixed that would be great as white phosphorus is definitely not a possibility.

You would also have to adress the possibility of the attacker freezing the lock so that the relocker doesen't activate when drilled. I think that using the different contraction rates of glass and metal could work. given a two part relocker with two compounds one of which(b) is encapsulated, if the b capsules are packed in tightly given that they have a different rate of contraction than the metal around them, hopefully less both negative internal pressure and negative external pressure cause the glass bubble or whatever it is to collapse releasing B into A and trigering the relocker. alternatively for more control the same sort of thing could be done except with a blasting cap/primer/fuse(whatever you call them)(Wow just spent 3 hrs looking a wiki articles on firearms) anyways yeah. use different expansion/sontraction rates to force a low contraction material to piece a primer and ignite re-locker before it is rendered inactive due to low temperature.

You would do better with a CCTV camera system and some software to track and identify movement patterns which you would program with the motions someone needed to do to bump a lock and then place cameras aimed from 4 places, directly above the lock, to the right of the lock, to the left of the lock and looking straight at the door... When the CCTV sees something that is abnormal and the software detects a movement which could be lock bumping, it could lock the door with a mag lock and activate an intruder alarm...

I doubt that you would ever be able to market lock cylinders which have hazardous materials inside of them, even if they are difficult to trigger -- they sound like something that an insurance company would not underwrite policy coverage for the use of...

"Security" is not the door, the lock, an alarm, a CCTV camera or a security guard patrol... It is a system made up of all these components designed for the risk and likelihood of being breached and what you are trying to protect in a facility...

~~ Evan

[jwhou]

...
You would do better with a CCTV camera system and some software to track and identify movement patterns which you would program with the motions someone needed to do to bump a lock and then place cameras aimed from 4 places, directly above the lock, to the right of the lock, to the left of the lock and looking straight at the door... When the CCTV sees something that is abnormal and the software detects a movement which could be lock bumping, it could lock the door with a mag lock and activate an intruder alarm...

I doubt that you would ever be able to market lock cylinders which have hazardous materials inside of them, even if they are difficult to trigger -- they sound like something that an insurance company would not underwrite policy coverage for the use of...

"Security" is not the door, the lock, an alarm, a CCTV camera or a security guard patrol... It is a system made up of all these components designed for the risk and likelihood of being breached and what you are trying to protect in a facility...

~~ Evan

Yes, no doubt security is a matter of degree, however the concept of a re-locker isn't often seen in door locks and it may be economical to implement something along those lines. Dangerous materials like phosphorous and thermite isn't necessary though would be pretty cool, which is why my thoughts were along the concepts of glass just like the glass re-lockers in safes which the insurance industry has already accepted. Spring loaded pins to trap a lock plug already exists as trap pins and again are accepted by insurance companies so melting the plug to the housing isn't a requirement for locking and of course I'm sure that if one could afford a 24 hour security guard, that would be quite acceptable to the insurance company as well.

On a side note, software to detect the patterns of tampering from video is easier said than done. It's relatively easy for humans to watch a video and say whether or not a breach was in progress but that is still a very difficult task for a computer. There are just some things we do better than computers hence the CAPTCHA turing test

[Evan]

On a side note, software to detect the patterns of tampering from video is easier said than done. It's relatively easy for humans to watch a video and say whether or not a breach was in progress but that is still a very difficult task for a computer. There are just some things we do better than computers hence the CAPTCHA turing test

Actually it is easier than you would think, given that you are looking for someone who lingers outside a door longer than normal (aspect #1), someone using two hands to operate the cylinder (aspect #2), someone who is swinging an object held in their hand and the hand/arm at the cylinder (aspect #3)...

When you consider a CCTV security system using multiple camera angles and software to decide based on the three aspects above, you could implement a system to alert to unauthorized access attempts via bumping...

Software like this is already deployed out there in commercial security, it is normally used to detect suspicious activities around elevators and escalators (i.e. someone lingering around for a while, or someone circling/pacing back and forth at either end of an escalator who is waiting for a moment when no one is looking before they "take a dive" on the escalator and make a false claim for personal injury) which are high risk exposure areas in publicly accessible areas in buildings...

Also such software is used with cameras on perimeter boundaries which look for something entering a forbidden zone and sound an alarm and can pan, tilt and zoom other cameras to the area of the possible intrusion and show a security center operator/attendant what is going on from several vantage points...

~~ Evan

[nataz]

5 grammes? :O

Try 1-2 grammes at most..


Trust me on this.. I've been using the stuff legally for years.

What are you doing with thermite?

[unlisted]

Used to do EOD, demonstrations, training, and other stuff like that. Still got my permits.

[98AB49DC5A]

5 grammes? :O

Try 1-2 grammes at most..


Trust me on this.. I've been using the stuff legally for years.

What are you doing with thermite?

The idea was to weld the plug to the body of the lock but that's not necessarily necessary.

[unlisted]

Hence me saying 1-2 grammes at most. do you know how long thermite reacts for? Do you know how little of an amount you need to do what you want to?

Unless you want to burn a hole clean through the safe, and into the ground below it..

[UnlockD]

My own idea was glass pins pressure filled with marker dyes such that a lock bump or tampering would cause the dye to spray out the keyhole hopefully marking the perpetrator and leaving definitive evidence of tampering .

That's a pretty good idea you got there. They'd have to be done just right, so some poor homeowner doesnt jam his key in angrily for whatever reason, and spends days scrubbing dye off