Doesn't this make you worry???

[unlisted]

standard method is to "call a keyholder" unless you pay for extra response (security) or if you pay much, much more for police response. But after the 2nd false alarm the police will NOT respond, unless you pay around 800 per call.

[Evan]

Do people have a clue what the "standard" response time is for alarm response for a residental building?

The "standard" in Ontario, Canada is horrible.. your looking at around an hour average before "someone" shows up... Unless you pay extra for Police.

Unlisted:

The way it is handled in Canada seems to be vastly different from how it is handled in the US...

Unless you are signing up specifically for a "private patrol service" is it understood that the central monitoring station of your alarm company will relay the signal to your local police or fire department via a telephone call... The local police and fire rescue treat the call as they would any other emergency call and respond in kind...

This is why many police departments have started issuing fines for the 3rd false alarm call in a calender year... To offset the costs of the emergency response...

Average professional (non-volunteer) fire department response time is under 5 minutes unless the entire department is tied up at a general alarm call...

Average police response time varies by location and the activities of the police at the moment the alarm signal is received... I have never heard of it being more than 10 minutes in larger suburbs unless some unusual weather conditions were a factor... Rural response times would of course be longer but it still gets every police officer in that area looking for abnormal things like weird unknown cars or vehicles with out of state license plates...

So it appears what is "standard" in Canada is quite different from what is standard in the US...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

standard method is to "call a keyholder" unless you pay for extra response (security) or if you pay much, much more for police response. But after the 2nd false alarm the police will NOT respond, unless you pay around 800 per call.

That sounds more like it applies to commercial properties and businesses rather than homes and residences... Users at a commercial property are much more likely to be inexperienced at using an alarm system due to high turnover and the frequent changes to the alarm codes...

In a residence the alarm codes are changed much less frequently and the homeowners are more familiar with the intricacies of how their alarm system operates than the typical employee at a commercial building who might only know how to enter the code...

~~ Evan

[unlisted]

No, that IS standard in Ontario as well, but after a few false alarms (which ALWAYS happens) what I state is the "standard" response.

Fire, well, that is different, I'm talking PD/security response.

Plus, residential intrusion alarms are not treated as a "high high" priority with the police. Standard "response" time is 20-45 mins, dependent on where the call is. City of Toronto is even longer. The further you get from dense population, the response time lessens.

[unlisted]

residential panic alarms are treated quite different.. FYI.

[Evan]

Plus, residential intrusion alarms are not treated as a "high high" priority with the police. Standard "response" time is 20-45 mins, dependent on where the call is. City of Toronto is even longer. The further you get from dense population, the response time lessens.

That will last only until enough people die within that "low priority" response time period who could have been saved if the police had immediately responded to the alarm call and the estate of the victims sues the police for what can be arguably considered a preventable death...

It would also defeat the entire purpose for installing and using alarm systems to begin with as the local burglary crews would just tamper with the systems and trigger them several times before committing the actual entry knowing that after X-number of false alarm calls they will have 5 or 6 times the amount time before the actual police response during the actual breaking and entering for the theft...

Seems to me that this is a system that is setting itself up for a pretty expensive learning curve one of these days... But that is just my opinion...

~~ Evan

[ENGR]

I think we can all agree an alarm system definitely helps. As does a better lock and protected windows.

It just depends who is more determined - you to keep a thief out, or them to get in.. you will never be fully protected (except of course if you live in a vault).

So in the end anything you can do to keep them out will help. My parents have a german shepherd and it seems to do the trick so far.. though would be interesting to see what would happen if someone busts in the door and throws in a steak..

[MacGyver101]

. . . would be interesting to see what would happen if someone busts in the door and throws in a steak..

It depends, I suppose: are your parents vegetarians?

[unlisted]

. . . would be interesting to see what would happen if someone busts in the door and throws in a steak..

It depends, I suppose: are your parents vegetarians?

I'd be more concerned about the dog, not the humans.. LOL

[nataz]

When windows or door kick ins are a concern, I usually recommend nice locks and an monitored alarm system.

Depending on local crime, expensive possessions, level of paranoia, etc, there are also solutions for reinforcing doors and windows, including replacing windows or covering them.

I have heard both ways-
An expensive lock can perhaps make a potential thief bypass your house for an easier one, or may indicate to the thief that you have something worth breaking in for.
There will always be a way for a person to break in and do harm; the idea is to make it more difficult and less rewarding to the criminal.

I dont mean to be rude, but this statement shows that you really havent been in the industry too long. Alarm's never have been or ever could be physical security protection devices. It is just not possible. Alarms are marketed as security products when in fact they are nothing of the kind. If you want or need to be informed that a condition is occurring or has occurred, to feel secure then by all means get a monitored alarm.

But door frame strengtheners and window security film will be significantly less expensive than an alarm system to install and not require the ongoing maintenance and cost for monitoring, that an alarm system requires to be effective.

It doesnt matter how expensive the lock is that you decide to put on your door. A determined burglar will defeat it. But you are quite correct in your statement that it is our jobs as locksmiths to recommend solutions to our customers that will slow down potential burglars.

In almost all cases reported to police, time is the one factor present in all cases, that the potential burglar is most concerned with. Slow them down and they will look elsewhere.

I'd like to say that we will have to agree to disagree, but I don't necessarily disagree with what you say.
Obviously, an Alarm system is not a physical deterrent. But it does act as a psychological one. Potentially- a burglar who sees that a house is alarmed, may move along to the next house. They may still attack the house, set off the alarm and take off. Or they may struggle to get into the house while it is going off and it is sent to monitoring, and then be caught in the act by the police, or not given the opportunity to do the extent of damage they might have, being in a rush.

Or, you can ignore alarm systems as a possible theft deterrent, go out of town for a couple weeks, and give a thief all the time they need to break into your secured door/window system and clean you completely out.

And also- I did go on to mention the possibility of reinforcing doors/windows, without mentioning very specific products or solutions.

It is true have only been in this business for five years, and I know that I still have a whole lot to learn. However, nothing you mentioned is outside of my base of knowledge. I also work with a couple of people who have been in the business (both alarms and locks) for over three decades, as well as several with 10-20 years experience in the business. Not one of these guys would discount alarm systems as part of a security solution.

Alarms (like a camera or a lock) are useful with limits. A camera/alarm are only as good as the assesment/response, but neither act as a delay element (lock). However, imagine if one was a gun owner - in that case an alarm may be a very useful part of a physical protection system since your response is directly tied to you knowing there is an intrusion. Strike plates, and reinforced barriers are only one part of the detect/assess/delay/respond that makes up a security system.

[globallockytoo]

So Nataz,

What defines "security" for you?

as it pertains to keeping intruders out?

[nataz]

[quote="globallockytoo"]So Nataz,

What defines "security" for you?

as it pertains to keeping intruders out?[/quote]


The bolded text highlights my point. Security isnt just about denial/keeping someone out.

a physical protection system has detect, assess, delay, and response. Examples: Detect = alarm, assess = camera, delay = locks, response = police.

How these are weighted depends on the goal of the system, capabilities of actors, risk willing to be assumed, and consequence derived from target.

[Evan]

So Nataz,

What defines "security" for you?

as it pertains to keeping intruders out?

You could spend $1,200 per opening installing expensive high security locks, reinforcing the door frame, installing strike plate reinforcements, and commercial grade one-piece hinges yet all that will do is clue the potential burglar that there are things inside the door worth stealing...

Your ideas on security would only be effective if one lived in an underground bunker with steel blast doors and no windows... Burglars think like this: Can I bash the door in ? Yes, AWESOME... No, Ok, let me go smash one of the windows instead... They aren't going to think: Oh crap there is a Medeco (or Bi Lock or Abloy) lock on this door, oh noes I need to find an easier place to break into...

Your idea of turning the door into a fortress without considering that the rest of the house isn't built like one sans alarm will result in the burglar seeking the path of least resistance to gain entry... You will come home to find your door with scratches and marks of someone having attempted entry, once you enter you will find where the burglar made entry after being slightly delayed by your superlock...

~~ Evan

[nataz]

btw, I agree that alarm systems don't work as advertised, but that doesn't mean that they aren't security devices. Alarm systems can be part of a good security system, they just aren't a delay mechanism. Cameras are the other big offender here. Again, they aren't a delay mechanism, they are an assessment tool. You can rewind a camera to look at something, and that can be important for assessing an alarm, or for containment/capture of adversary later on, but it won't stop a adversary (deterrence is hard to measure - especially when dealing with an unsophisticated adversary).

I totally agree with the thrust of what you were saying. Kick plates/window film > bang for your buck then alarm systems in many residential homes; depending on the goal of the system. If it's just to keep people out, then sure add more delay mechanisms.

But there are situations where the an acceptable risk level can't be achieved reasonably with simple delay -or- delay doesn't answer the threat. For instance, if you are in a very rural area with long/non-existent response times, delay might not matter. In that case you may want to look at capture after the fact (cameras), or if you are protecting a target that cannot be touched (say your family) you become your own response force (home defense).

Another common tactic for dealing with risk is to simply lower the value of the target. If you can't protect your huge plasma TV that sits in the living room surrounded by windows next to the street, maybe you don't buy that big TV. Also, maybe insurance is a better bet than better locks.

This is a lock centric website, I get that, but from my point of view locks make up a very small part in the total design of a physical protection system.

[Evan]

Another common tactic for dealing with risk is to simply lower the value of the target. If you can't protect your huge plasma TV that sits in the living room surrounded by windows next to the street, maybe you don't buy that big TV. Also, maybe insurance is a better bet than better locks.

This is a lock centric website, I get that, but from my point of view locks make up a very small part in the total design of a physical protection system.

+1

Locks only keep the door closed -- they are incapable of doing more than that... They only allow you to discover after the fact that something has happened... Good "high security" locks when used without an alarm system = false sense of security...

~~ Evan