My crazy thought(s)

[unlisted]

How hard would it be to make a "pick gun" that actually picked/decoded a lock?

To elaborate, how hard would it be to make a automatic lockpick that would "try out" all pins at the same time, in some mathematical order, (pin combination's), until it found the right combo? Than, it read out the key biting on a display of sorts? I mean, in this digital/electronic age, I am sure someone must be able to create something for people who cannot physically pick a lock anymore...?

I do know the actual "picks" and the key blades would probably need to be lock specific (to a point), and maybe have some tiny motor that would also rotate the tool to automatically try to unlock each time it tries...

(yes, I have more ideas, but I will see how this one is received first)



Man, these pills are working good tonight.

[FarmerFreak]

I guess if someone made a sputnik with a stepper motor for each wire!? And then put a computer in control and it should be possible. Then add one extra motor for turning the key, so you wouldn't have to manually try it at each pin position.

[EmCee]

It doesn't sound impossible. But if it was done then it would be an end to lockmaking and locksmithing (what could be done for a pin tumbler could be done for lever, wafer, disc, tubular etc) and we'd all have to buy biometric locks.

Cheers...

[Legion303]

What FarmerFreak said, and I believe it would take roughly forever for some locks because it seems like you couldn't make this work as fast as, say, a safe dialer. But I bet you can cut the number of possibles way down by programming half bittings for cheapo no-security locks. Or I could just be completely wrong. Talk to that mcm(bunchofnumbers) guy; I think he has the tech know-how to pull this off.

EDIT: And John Falle probably made one for the CIA 20 years ago. :)

-steve

[oORusHOo]

I could try and make one. I've always wanted to since i watched a film when i was younger about a little squid-like thing which stuck to the door and picked the lock.

I can see some difficulties though....hm, like how it would align to the lock, and how it would provide a turning force.... i'll think about it.

Since i bought a Peterson Pro-1 (which is a bit like a sputnik but for Ace locks), i've been thinking how to apply it to a regular pin tumbler. I've got a couple of ideas, but the real question is... if i did, say, spend a grand developing such a thing - would anyone actually buy it?

Locksmiths wouldn't (they're rather pick it/rake it/bump it/drill it), lock sport people like myself wouldn't (it's no fun!).

Perhaps if it was a picking tool a bit like he 'scope doctors use when they go routing around your gut (movable with a controller, etc), it would still be fun

[unlisted]

If someone builds it, I would buy it. I cannot pick.. and miss it.

I would think this would be the "next best thing" in my case.


I also know it would be very difficult to build- and I am also not an engineer. I'm just a thinker/dreamer.

[98AB49DC5A]

they have built something very similar. mas-hamilton(I think that's the right name) the same people who make the x-09, make something they call a "soft drill". it's an automated safecracker that can open most group 2 locks withing 30 minutes, much better than an autodialer.

personally I've always thought an automated lockpicking device would be wonderful. but why just make it an autodialer. if it used feedback it could get the job done much quicker. it could have amazing memory, dexterity and would know exactly where everything was inside the lock and if not could find out easily enough. It might be better than the best lock picker. It's actually a really good idea.

[oORusHOo]

Hehe, i'm sorry about your hands unlisted. Must suck hard
Sure they'll get better with time though. Takes a month + for nerves to settle down anyway. Chances are they'll get better throughout that time.

If not, here's what i've got so far on the idea of an auto-picker =P :

Two ideas for alignment and causing rotational force:

1) Suction cup method.
A couple of suction cups (the decent screw/lock-down type) with adjustable poles on them could be placed on the door, and adjusted so the body of the autopick is in the right place. Three or more would be needed.

2) The tripod method.
A regular tripod! =P

Causing rotational force is easy enough. A bar which is pushed left and right with a small motor to give left/right torque.

The picking part is the hard part - what with all the different varieties of keyway.
Also feedback, as motors/servos can't push and calculate resistance at the same time (i don't think).

An idea i thought of might be air-pressure. 'Pins' on the inserted bar which pop out with air pressure.
You could then have different tips for different locks, and even pins going out at different angles (sidebars)
Or maybe liquid... although that could get messy, could provide a larger pressure.

I'll draw a picture, one sec

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3991/autopick.png

Okay done - but i haven't included the pressure tips things. Just the suction/torque method. I'll do the pressure later once i've thought it through a bit better =P

[oORusHOo]

Here's what the main body (with the picking mechanism) would look like.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7764/autopick2.png

Air pressure would move things in/out of the orange bit, which would essentially be a keyblank with hole in it (for the air).
Once air is injected/removed from a channel in the keyblank, the middle layer would rotate to another pin, locking that pin at a certain pressure so you could manipulate another.

Stick a gyro in there (like the bit from a Wii controller) so it knows how much it's rotated to the nearest millionth of a degree, and a little computer to automate the rotation/airpressure, and you've got yourself an auto-pick

[unlisted]

Hehe, i'm sorry about your hands unlisted. Must suck hard
Sure they'll get better with time though. Takes a month + for nerves to settle down anyway. Chances are they'll get better throughout that time.

My "accident" happened in 2006- hands are FUBAR'ed- nerves did not regenerate, nor will they.

So ya, lets make a auto pick!

I'm thinking actual physical "picks" would work better, I do believe a while ago someone else pitched the air pressure idea, and the consensus was it would not work. Liquid, bleh.

I'm starting to think more and more about this, and I had a brain fart, or maybe an idea earlier- still dunno which one it was. Have this controlled by a computer or small PDA of sorts, and since lock pins are not all sized the same across different manufacturers, have all the pinning data stored in the memory. So, I walk up to a "xx brand" lock, I just select the correct pin/lock brand, and it would "bounce through" all the known depths, in a mathematical order. (more on the math order later)

Also, for the actual "insert into lock tool" part, ideally have it so there is as little differences- sorta like making blanks that can fit into multiple keyways, within reason. (thinking along the lines of the master best blank series) Of course, I'm still expecting to need at least a dozen different "tips" or "ends" to make it work on most common locks, but this would need more researching as well.

Regarding the math part, I actually need to thank Rickthepick for one of his recent posts that disappeared into the advanced section. He was discussing all the "possible codes" for a simplex lock, than after he got that he went further to start making "master tryout list" using some mathmatical equation, or somethign of the sort. If I remember right, he figured out a way to get a computer program to "guess" which codes would be most likely to be used, and which would not.. I'm hoping someone could come up with a list like that as well. (since lockies don't overly like to make locks with a 7 pin and a 1 pin side by side..)

thoughts..


Just ideas..

[oORusHOo]

Regarding the air pressure bit, i do mean physical picks - just that they're controlled by air pressure.
If you used wire (like a sputnik), there are many complications, such as the wire not coming straight out, and just the issue with 6 wires in such a short space.

I was thinking of something like this:

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1669/autopick3.png

So the first circular disc is the one that rotates, putting pressure into/out of each chamber.

The second has holes on one side which match up with the rotating disk, whilst on the otherside (the rectangular side) the 12 holes are lined up as a square with 4 rows of 3. Different key type attachments would go on that 3x4 row of holes.

In this example, a simple 6-pin lock which uses the first two rows of the 12 holes. the whole thing would be airtight, including the moving pins (shown with a gap in the side for clarity).

With knowledge of rotation from a servo or lazer, and extension of the picking/pins using pressure, a computer could either run through all possible combinations, 'intelligently' pick the lock with feedback, or even bump the lock one pin at a time (by putting the feeding hole halfway between two pin-holes, increasing the pressure, then rotating the feeding hole so that pressure 'pops' into a pin chamber).
You could even over-pick by extending all the pins to their maximum, perhaps.

My university finals in three days, after which i'll see how feasible it is to actually make a tool like this.

[Schuyler]

I've had this very thought. Specifically I thought that if you could get it small enough and keyway-specific, you could build a device that you actually slap on the door & walk away from. Come back in an hour and walk in the door.

Similarly for heavy bike cables, a cutter that you would just attach to the cable, walk away from and let it cut. It would have a heavy plastic body that just looked like another lock and once the cable is cut through, it wouldn't fall open, not until you take it off. Come back in an hour, take the bike.

These are obviously fantastical thoughts. No life of crime for me, but I do think of them from time to time

[oORusHOo]

Haha, that's a neat idea for a Sci-Fi story Schuyler. Something batman might use =P

I thought of something similar with a Ethernet cable once - you 'clip' it on to the cable, and it punctures all the little cables inside, works out which cables which pins are in, and wireless transmits the data to a laptop nearby.

Funny thing is, i bet the intelligence agencies of our respective countries have something like this already (automated picker, cable taps, etc).

[Schuyler]

Hah, on your Ethernet idea, JGor (great picker) has this on his website with no explaination: http://indiecom.org/projects/tap/

[oORusHOo]

That's pretty cool!
Although, erm, you'd still have to unplug something to plug it into an existing wire.

I was thinking of like...tapping the wire without unplugging anything. Otherwise you could just use a hub =P

Still - very cool! I'll have to check this guy's website out...