Spring loaded key pins

[FarmerFreak]

The idea is to have constant spring tension on the bottom pins. I know what you're thinking, "What would that accomplish?" The answer: Probably not much, but it has the potential to play mind games with the picker!

This was a test run to see if I could pull it off. Which I did, and it could probably use some improvements. But here it is.







So how will this be able to play mind games with the picker? Simple, randomly add a couple of Master Bump Stop driver pins in a few chambers.

If you aren't familiar with Master Bump Stop pins. They don't drop down far enough to touch the shallower key pins in the resting position. So when someone is trying to pick this lock they will be able to clearly find the regular binding pins and set them. But when it comes time to set the Bump Stop style pins they will likely be left trying to figure out which pins those ones are.

In theory it shouldn't be too hard to figure out and pick a lock set up this way. Just remember exactly which pins you have set, when you can't find a binding pin any longer you would have to remember to push one of the previously non binding pins up until it makes contact with the driver pin and then lift it more to set it. I have a feeling that that may be easier said than done, ...which is why I'm going to test it.


It's an interesting concept, so I'm giving it a try.

[MacGyver101]

That's just evil. I like it!

[piepie]

Evil lock! it would be quite annoying to pick!

[femurat]

I'd like to play with a lock with all the top pins spring loaded like this just to see how it works. I'm sure it could be interesting.

But won't this spring loaded pin be screaming "bump me please"? I mean, if the bottom pin is pushed down by his own spring, it could be extremely easy to bump it. I'm just guessing this since I've never bumped a lock.

And how does it resist to an overlift attack?

Cheers

[FarmerFreak]

Good questions Femurat.

I'm not too concerned about bumping since I plan on having at least two of the driver pins resting above the key pins (above as in not touching the key pins ). Although at this time I'm not planning on putting stiffer springs over those special drivers. It's a trade off, I don't want so much spring tension that it's a real pain to get the key in and out. But if I put stiffer springs above those pins, it'd be even more bump resistant.

As far as the overlifting attack. I don't know. I've never had much luck with overlifting in pin tumbler locks. But I've seen it done and this design should make it easier to do. That could be a real problem, and it's something that I will see if I can do when I'm finished. Of course if I can't do it, that doesn't mean that it can't be done.

[globallockytoo]

Farmerfreak,

Have you ever seen the Binary Plus system from Australia? It is quite unique in it's design and I suggest probably bump proof and very pick resistant. I havent got a link to it but in a nutshell it uses a trap pin system.

When an attempt to pick or use the wrong key, the side springs hook into the designated pin, trapping it above the shearline. Only the correct working key can return the plug to the correct working position.

The reason I mention it here is because I think you may be trying something similar in design.

[globallockytoo]

Binary Plus...

http://www.masterlocksmiths.com.au/medi ... ochure.pdf

[Squelchtone]

Binary Plus...

http://www.masterlocksmiths.com.au/medi ... ochure.pdf

Global,
That is totally awesome and I want one! Are they available for sale and how much in $US would a mortise or Australian oval with key cost me? I think Farmer's doesn't actually lock anything up, but confuses the picker with unexpected spring pressure against the pins they are lifting.

Thanks for that pdf!
Squelchtone

[femurat]

Very interesting lock Global, thanks for pointing it out

Is it possible to free the trapped pins simply by pushing the horizontal pins with a pick?

Also, aren't those springs holding up for us the correctly set pins (once they've been correctly set)?
I mean, if you don't overlift them the spring doesn't trap the key pins but could keep the top pins up...

Cheers

[MacGyver101]

Somewhat related to this general idea, I ran across an interesting patent yesterday, for a tubular lock that uses spring-balanced pin-stacks as an anti-pick measure (Patent 7,685,854).

The idea is actually pretty interesting. Instead of acting on the pins directly, the key pushes against transfer bars (which I've coloured yellow in this copy of the patent diagram):

The transfer bars push against a series of internal drivers (green) which are heavily sprung. As the internal drivers (green) are depressed they allow the actual top/bottom pins (blue) to move towards the shear line (red). Because the "green" spring is much stronger than the "blue" spring, it would be extremely hard to determine whether or not the "blue" top/bottom pins are binding or properly set.

Very neat idea.

[globallockytoo]

Binary Plus...

http://www.masterlocksmiths.com.au/medi ... ochure.pdf

Global,
That is totally awesome and I want one! Are they available for sale and how much in $US would a mortise or Australian oval with key cost me? I think Farmer's doesn't actually lock anything up, but confuses the picker with unexpected spring pressure against the pins they are lifting.

Thanks for that pdf!
Squelchtone

I might be lucky enough to speak to a mate in Oz who might be able to get me some.

There are some Aussie lockies here who might be able to help quicker. (I havent any here)

[MacGyver101]

Binary Plus...

http://www.masterlocksmiths.com.au/medi ... ochure.pdf

Very cool! The brochure shows the mechanism really well, but I was able to find the patent as well, which shows some additional detail: Patent 5,617,750

Thanks for providing the link to that!

[globallockytoo]

Very interesting lock Global, thanks for pointing it out

Is it possible to free the trapped pins simply by pushing the horizontal pins with a pick?

In all likelihood, I believe so but only if the side pins are located in the corresponding chambers to the set bottom pins.

Also, aren't those springs holding up for us the correctly set pins (once they've been correctly set)?

Once correctly set (by a working key) the traps are bypassed. Picking would require making sure the pins are not trapped.

I mean, if you don't overlift them the spring doesn't trap the key pins but could keep the top pins up...

the top pins (drivers) do not have the trap milling so the springs will not hold them up.

[globallockytoo]

There is an interesting dilemna with the system though. The selected position for the "trapped" pins (from memory - it's been so long - sorry) required a maximum 5 depth (lockwood pinning), I think. This reduced the quantity of change keys in a master keyed system.

I remember locksmiths building systems too, where they completely removed the trap springs and leaving out the side pins, effectively making the product insecure.

[globallockytoo]

Somewhat related to this general idea, I ran across an interesting patent yesterday, for a tubular lock that uses spring-balanced pin-stacks as an anti-pick measure (Patent 7,685,854).

The idea is actually pretty interesting. Instead of acting on the pins directly, the key pushes against transfer bars (which I've coloured yellow in this copy of the patent diagram):

The transfer bars push against a series of internal drivers (green) which are heavily sprung. As the internal drivers (green) are depressed they allow the actual top/bottom pins (blue) to move towards the shear line (red). Because the "green" spring is much stronger than the "blue" spring, it would be extremely hard to determine whether or not the "blue" top/bottom pins are binding or properly set.

Very neat idea.

That looks surprisingly similar to the new Galaxy product from Australian Lock Company who also make the sensational Bilock product (couldnt help throwing in a plug for Bilock - )