Spring loaded key pins

[globallockytoo]

Galaxy...

[fjardeson]

The Galaxy looks like its designer was a Bramah fan... I want one

I had one concern about the Binary Plus. If the trap millings on the bottom pin are always at the same position relative to the top of the pin, couldn't you intentionally get all the top pins trapped, then decode, subtracting the offset of the trap vs. top of pin?

[Squelchtone]

Galaxie:

start at 00:32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8g3ak0xgcg



Squelchtone

[globallockytoo]

The Galaxy looks like its designer was a Bramah fan... I want one

I had one concern about the Binary Plus. If the trap millings on the bottom pin are always at the same position relative to the top of the pin, couldn't you intentionally get all the top pins trapped, then decode, subtracting the offset of the trap vs. top of pin?

That's a fair assumption I think. But the point in coding these is to not use all chambers as
trapped positions. It also depends heavily on your master keying I suppose.

I see your point though. It would be a challenge but not practical in the field. Aside, the technician working on one will likely have access to the keying records.

For picking, I think it would be a huge challenge.

[FarmerFreak]

Farmerfreak,

Have you ever seen the Binary Plus system from Australia?

Haven't heard of it before. Thanks for the links.

Based on what I see in the brochure. I'm can't figure out what would make these difficult to pick. The driver pins are standard and aren't affected by the trap pin system. Which means you could pick it like normal. If you messed up and over set a pin you should be able to easily release it from the trap by pressing the side pin with your pick. ...But in the patent that MacGyver101 found. The trap pin system does affect the driver pins. And that would likely cause some serious picking issues.

Somewhat related to this general idea, I ran across an interesting patent yesterday, for a tubular lock that uses spring-balanced pin-stacks as an anti-pick measure (Patent 7,685,854).

The idea is actually pretty interesting. Instead of acting on the pins directly, the key pushes against transfer bars (which I've coloured yellow in this copy of the patent diagram):

The transfer bars push against a series of internal drivers (green) which are heavily sprung. As the internal drivers (green) are depressed they allow the actual top/bottom pins (blue) to move towards the shear line (red). Because the "green" spring is much stronger than the "blue" spring, it would be extremely hard to determine whether or not the "blue" top/bottom pins are binding or properly set.

Very neat idea.

That looks surprisingly similar to the new Galaxy product from Australian Lock Company who also make the sensational Bilock product (couldnt help throwing in a plug for Bilock - )

MacGyver101 that design is cool.

I'm not sure how the Galaxy really works. The only Galaxy images I've seen get pixelated up close and I can't quite tell how all the parts interact.


---------------------------------------------
OK, back on to the original topic. Even if only for a second, which is fine. I like the looks of these other locks.

I finished this lock cylinder today. I haven't tried to pick gun/bump key it. It hasn't fallen victim to an overlifting attack (though as I mention earlier that may not mean much coming from me). As far as regular picking goes. I don't think it slowed me down much at all. Which was expected since I keyed it up and knew exactly which chambers have the special drivers that don't rest on the key pins. Two other people I work with have picked it and it seems to have slowed them down, but only by a minute or two. They knew what I had done to the cylinder but didn't know the bitting or which chambers had the special drivers.

I think it mainly suffers from the fact that I used a General cylinder with crappy tolerances. I'm not sure how much better it would be in a lock with tighter tolerances. Overall it was a fun experiment. But nothing really spectacular.

[globallockytoo]

I'm can't figure out what would make these difficult to pick. The driver pins are standard and aren't affected by the trap pin system.

It is the bottom pins that have the trap slot (in the pin) so overlifting is very likely, I suggest and expressly where the difficulty lies.

Often when picking by SPP or even by pick gun, overlifting is quite a common occurrence. Often the need to listen to the sound of pins dropping can help the picking process, as you no doubt are aware.

[FarmerFreak]

Often when picking by SPP or even by pick gun, overlifting is quite a common occurrence. Often the need to listen to the sound of pins dropping can help the picking process, as you no doubt are aware.

While this is true, I generally consider the act of overlifting to be a mistake. Since you shouldn't be lifting a pin that isn't binding in the first place, and if your lifting the binding pin there isn't a real reason to overlift it.

And since if you do overlift the pin it looks trivial to release it again with your pick. I do think that the design will stop most pickers, ...just not the ones that really know their stuff.

[femurat]

I mean, if you don't overlift them the spring doesn't trap the key pins but could keep the top pins up...

the top pins (drivers) do not have the trap milling so the springs will not hold them up.

Ok, I understand that this doesn't apply if you use a key since the pins aren't falling down. But won't the spring "fall" in the space between the top and driver pin, once it's correctly set by picking it?

I really want to play with one of these now

Cheers

[FarmerFreak]

But won't the spring "fall" in the space between the top and driver pin, once it's correctly set by picking it?

By looking closely at the pictures. If the spring gets into a position to hold the driver pin up. I think it will be holding it where it blocks the shear line, since the spring doesn't rest flush with the cylinder.

It does look interesting, and I wouldn't mind having one to play with either.

[femurat]

I had to play with the image and look closer at the springs to see what both Global and FarmerFreak are telling me... I was sure every trap spring had its own groove flush with the keyway, but now it seems just a cut away segment... I guess you're right. Thank you for clarifying that for me.

Cheers