One pin up, another down

[xilus2]

I am picking this lock.
I can get the first two pins up just fine.
But the moment I push the third pin up the second pin pops back down.
I am sure not to touch the second pin when this happens.
but very consistently when i push the third pin up the second pops back down.
Is there any security mechanism that may be causing this?

[TriannaX]

By "Third pin" do you mean the literal 3rd pin from the front/back or the third pin that binds?

Also, does the second pin pop down with force, or just fall into a resting position?

What brand/model of lock are you picking?

[Solomon]

You may be oversetting pin 3 and causing 2 to fall back down. If not, then 2 and 3 don't bind in the order you're trying to set them in... just come back to pin 2 again afterwards and see if it's still binding, if it is you can set it again and if not you can remember to come back to it after trying the others.

If there are spool pins in the lock, it's common to pick a pin out of false set and have one or more of the other set pins to drop back into place - again this is because of the binding order... remember you can set pins before they're supposed to be and they'll reset again when you disturb the other pins. With higher quality locks it can be difficult to tell which pin is binding the most and you'll find this happening a lot, but with standard cylinders it shouldn't be much of an issue. You just have to be patient and methodical.

On that note, which lock are you picking? A picture of the key bitting could give us some ideas of what's happening aswell, but it's more than likely just a case of oversetting something or setting pins in the wrong order.

[xilus2]

Hey thanks for the replies. I will read through your comments again and see if I can't do any better on a second try. Thank would be great if you would take a look at it.

[xilus2]

By "Third pin" do you mean the literal 3rd pin from the front/back or the third pin that binds?

Also, does the second pin pop down with force, or just fall into a resting position?

What brand/model of lock are you picking?

Yes, by third ping I mean 3rd, front to back.
It pops down with force, the spring is clearly driving it straight down.

[Schuyler]

Medeco is not an easy lock to pick for a beginning picker. Lots of info around here about them. Much much more importantly is that you should not be picking a lock that is in use. I see that you have a key for it, so hopefully you at least own the lock, but really, I would not mess with this one.

[Squelchtone]

Medeco is not an easy lock to pick for a beginning picker. Lots of info around here about them. Much much more importantly is that you should not be picking a lock that is in use. I see that you have a key for it, so hopefully you at least own the lock, but really, I would not mess with this one.

Uncle Schuyler is right, Medeco is not an easy lock for a beginner. Not only that, perhaps you are not aware that when picking a Medeco lock, you need to lift the pins, AND rotate them to the correct angle so that the sidebar can fall into the gates in the key pins.

Also, Medeco is machined to much better tolerances than a typical Home Depot deadbolt like Kwikset or Schlage, so since there is less slop in the holes that are drilled in the bible and in the plug, lifting one pin, and then lifting another, may make all other pins fall back down unless you have good tension control and can find the binding order which is not going to be easy with that lock.

If this is some office door at work that you happen to have the key to, please don't practice on it, I'm sure your employer didnt give you the rights to that lock thinking you were gonna be sticking things into it other than the keys. If you do pick it and there are master wafers inside, its easy to have one fall out and then both your key and the building master will fail to work.

If you're hot to pick a Medeco, buy a 6 pin mortise on ebay, with or without key, and then remove all the stacks except one, pick that, then add a pin stack, pick that, and keep going until you can pick all 6. You'll notice 1-3 stacks is pretty easy, 4 is fun, 5 is difficult and 6 is all out frustration.

This also depends on the bitting and angles of your lock, some are pinned up easier than others, and master keyed locks are always easier because more shear lines = more chances to open lock.

Squelchtone

[Solomon]

Well that certainly explains a lot! What you have there is a medeco biaxial... no wonder you're having trouble, it's already been said but these locks have rotating key pins which interact with a sidebar... you need to rotate the pins into place before you can pick it and even without the sidebar it's not the easiest lock in the world. If you look at your key you'll notice the cuts are at different angles; this is so the key can rotate the pins into the correct configuration. Here is a pic of the components from one I have:



Each key pin has a groove running down the side, when they're all rotated correctly the fingers on the sidebar enter those grooves and the sidebar springs into the plug allowing it to rotate. Each pin has an additional false groove to frustrate picking aswell, and when you get the sidebar set you also have those lovely mushroom pins to deal with.

I can tell you from experience that these are tough with a capital T... there's a lot to keep in mind when picking these things, but they're definately a lot of fun when you know what you're doing. If you want to learn to pick one I suggest doing what squelch said and get hold of one that you can take apart and practice on... but it's probably a good idea to get the hang of picking normal locks first.

[xilus2]

Do you think bumping or electric picking guns would work will on medeco locks?

[Schuyler]

Didn't pick up on our reticence there, huh? Personally I'm not going to help you in your pursuit of picking this lock as it is clearly in use & I doubt your sole ownership of it. There is debate in this forum about the security level of Medecos and whether they can be discussed in the open forums. I'm good either way, and you might find the information you are looking for, but pushing for more information when several people have already warned that you shouldn't be picking locks in use is poor form.

[Squelchtone]

Do you think bumping or electric picking guns would work will on medeco locks?

You obviously do not know and have not taken the time to look up how Medeco locks work. No, you cannot make a "simple" bump key (you'd have to make 4 or 16 special bump keys using a special $5000 machine, and only if you really knew what you were doing and had access to blanks or could make your own) and an electric pick gun would not work on Medeco because Medeco pins need to lift AND rotate.

Your questions are leading down a dark path into criminal behavior, because no hobby lock picker would ever want to open a Medeco with an EPG, and if you were a locksmith you would already know that this kind of lock doesn't open with that kind of tool.

This forum is probably not what you thought it was.
Squelchtone

[xilus2]

you've got me all wrong.
I am studying to become a cyber security expert, and cyber security also includes physical security.
I attack my own machines all the time, because this is the only way to secure systems is to know how to attack them.
And no, while I don't have the time right now to take apart some locks and really understand this field, a few minutes of your time explaining what you have already experienced saves me many hours of mechanical labor to obtain the same knowledge.
Also, if I need to protect low end server configurations mechanical locks might suffice, and I need to understand when biometrics is necessary.
I need to know how much security I can get from high end mechanical security, so I need to give my best attempt at breaking into some locks.

[Schuyler]

Your best attempt will not inform how secure these locks are. Period.

That would be like me saying "I often have to complete secure transactions online and the only way to know how secure that is is to attack it myself."

Nooooope. I have 0 knowledge about that field & could not begin to balance the myriad security vulnerabilities. Same logic applies here. You clearly have 0 knowledge and are throwing out pretty ridiculous attack options against something you don't understand.

I appreciate your desire to learn, but there are significant difference between physical and digital security. First - when the physical breaks it can fail safe or secure, neither is good, though, as you are either left with a door you cannot secure or a door that cannot be opened. The fix is expensive, destructive, time consuming and leaves whoever was relying on that lock vulnerable until you have remedied the situation.

Additionally, digital security protects personal information, physical security protects persons. The stakes are much higher.

Saying that a few minutes from us can save you the time we have put in, and suggesting that you personally can accurately judge the efficacy of a lock by attacking it is ignorant and insulting.

I'm not usually the harsh one on the forums, but you have struck a nerve with me.

Want a quick fix? Buy an Abloy Protect w/a Drumm Geminy shield. Done, boom, case closed and you never have to worry about your physical security needs again. Glad I could help.

[xilus2]

Your best attempt will not inform how secure these locks are. Period.

My acceptance of this is the reason I am on this forum

That would be like me saying "I often have to complete secure transactions online and the only way to know how secure that is is to attack it myself."

I think we must be having some kind of miscommunication. By "Attack" I mean try to break into.
And what I was saying was that in order to ensure my computer system is secure I have to learn the methods by which one breaks into computer systems.
While yes, a foundational knowledge on the workings of computer systems is also pivotal, there is no end to this study. You will just end up doing quantum mechanics and not securing computer systems, or locks for that matter. And that some higher level engineering knowledge, such as the tricks and gimmicks for breaking into locks or servers is important to learn.

Additionally, digital security protects personal information, physical security protects persons. The stakes are much higher.

Clearly, with the existence of knowledge regarding nuclear, biological, and other methods of warfare, security of knowledge or the lack of this security can damage more physical lives than can fit in one room with a lock on the front. But nonetheless clearly both are absolutely pivotal forms of security as it also takes mechanical security to secure information.

Saying that a few minutes from us can save you the time we have put in, and suggesting that you personally can accurately judge the efficacy of a lock by attacking it is ignorant and insulting.

The reason I am asking questions here is because I am well aware there are many people here that have spent a lot of time to learn a lot about the field of mechanical security mechanisms, and I think it is in the interest of these people to spend a few minutes helping me interpret some of high level methods and information for breaking into locks.

I'm not usually the harsh one on the forums, but you have struck a nerve with me.

I think it is in our interest to share knowledge.

Want a quick fix? Buy an Abloy Protect w/a Drumm Geminy shield. Done, boom, case closed and you never have to worry about your physical security needs again. Glad I could help.

Noted, and your time is greatly appreciated sir.

[Squelchtone]

The reason I am asking questions here is because I am well aware there are many people here that have spent a lot of time to learn a lot about the field of mechanical security mechanisms, and I think it is in the interest of these people to spend a few minutes helping me interpret some of high level methods and information for breaking into locks.

So we spend lots of time learning, but you want the quick answer as to the top ways of breaking into these locks? Hell no. We are not a 1-800-askalocksmith or 1-800-askaphysicalsecurityconsultant hotline. You should hire someone to do a field study at your location if you're this concerned. We owe you nothing and it is not in our best interest to help strangers asking very specific questions about very specific locks. If you even showed a glimmer of the hobbyist spirit about trying to open one of these locks for the pure thrill or puzzle solving ability, we would be glad to help, but your approach is leaving a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

The bottom line: You have Medeco on your server door, so shut up already and enjoy your $200 dollar lock, which is 90% better than most of the other crap I've seen on server room and network closet doors. No further testing by you is needed. And I doubt your location is the kind of place that an intelligence service is trying to get into, otherwise you would have already hired a professional team to go over and upgrade your locks, cameras, and alarms.

One bad thing is, is that you have a knob set with a spring loaded latch, which is easy to bypass with the old credit card trick. If you want a really secure door to your server room, go buy a Medeco or Abloy Protec deadbolt, which will invalidate the credit card trick.

Stop making extra work for yourself, and it seems you're over thinking/obsessing over this. I wish I had as much time on my hands as you seem to.
Squelchtone