banning the bump key?

[Scope]

Banning the bump key is simply stupid! You may as well ban learning, i would say some QUALIFIED locksmiths got interested in this way i bet…. What about future skills? kids now will be adults and future professionals. I would be willing to bet that the majority of halfwit dum a** criminals do even know what one is, if they did they would say it would be too loud to use any way.

Locksport is so underrated, an have bad press sometimes.
Some killjoys really need to have a word with themself's, future generations will end up being bums if we continue to ban everything...... If anything people who break the law are known to police or way to smart to be braking and entering!

http://www.banthebumpkey.com/viewnews.asp?id=14

whats your views?

Scope

[Squelchtone]

whats your views?

Bumping and Locksport are two things I don't use in the same sentence typically. You're new at this so I know bumping must be the coolest thing on earth, but bumping is as related to hobby lock picking as is slipping a latch with a credit card. It's only useful to locksmiths, security researchers, and bad guys.

Bumping a lock is like bringing an Uzi to go duck hunting. Picking is like using a nice Benelli shotgun to use your skill and try to shoot a duck after you flush it out, bumping is like flushing the duck out and then spraying the sky with an automatic Uzi hoping that eventually something will fall out of the sky.
Sure it opens the lock, but where's the fun or challenge in that?

I don't think they should ban anything, because when you suppress information or obscure it from the public eye it gives everyone a false sense of security, and in the end the bad guys still have and share the information. Instead of banning the bump key, manufacturers need to innovate and stop making locks based on an outdated 1800's Yale pin tumbler design, or modify that design to have multiple points of locking that make bumping either very difficult or impossible.

One thing that may slow locksport down from being recognized as a legitimate hobby is a flurry of people who are into bump keys and go around telling everyone that THAT's what locksport is. I'd like to distance our hobby from those people.

Squelchtone

[Scope]

I thought they were well apart of the same thing, so thanks for making the difference known , although i do think enough is enough with banning stuff, common sence should prevail. It's still a usefull skill to learn if interested in. Were not all criminals, just some small proportion of society.

If Locksport was ever going to be banned, id be first in line to take the bullets and stop it as im sure everyone here would.

[EmCee]

The Ban the Bump Key campaign/petition dates back to 08/09 at a time when bumping was a 'new' fad in UK after coming from the US, and coincided with a TV prog that highlighted the threat.

The campaign hooked on bump keys but the real point was locksmiths arguing that specialist locksmith tools (in particular, those that were relatively cheap and relatively easy to use) should not be sold to the general public. Many locksmith tool suppliers will sell to anyone.

Locksport folk won't like the idea of not being able to obtain tools, but it's hard to argue against the case that they should not be widely available.

We all know that the most common form of illegal entry is destructive and not through picking or bumping locks, but the biggest danger of the latter is that if surreptitious entry is gained, there will be no evidence of unauthorised entry (without forensic examination which isn't going to happen in most cases) and so insurance companies will reduce or withhold payment.

Cheers...

[raimundo]

I have an original schlage c key that is bitted 99889, its not a bump key, it has the code written right on it. You can ban bump keys but any old key can easily be recut to a bump key so banning will not decrease availablity.
Its time to bring back the lever lock. bumping is an inherent flaw in the pin tumbler key design, it cannot be improved by a ban that has no hope of success. banning a tool or technique is stupid, you are only putting a bandaid on a design flaw.

That said, I have only bumped some practice locks back in 05 when it was a current topic on the lp101, I found that the bump hammer is very important, Using steel tablespoons and the solid steel handle of a butter knife will not work. A bump hammer or the handle of a screwdriver will though. Bumping successfully requires some practice. If one were to attempt to use it as a substitute for picking, you would need a huge ring of these keys. As far as any nefarious use of them, its more likely to be a threat when the person who has a motive is an insider with knowlege of what keyblank is used, and the knowlege to cut a workable one, look at all the posts like "my bumpkey dosent work" and such. To bump a lock successfuly, is actually a skill, you cant be heavy handed, and any beginner will find the initial learning curve steep. I probably could not bump a lock now because I have no practice.

Banning them is not going to stop someone who is breaking the law by choice anyway. fix the design flaw. and ban lying about the security of crap locks to scam consumers with inferior security.

[EmCee]

As I said, the popular hype over bump keys was used to press for the wider issue of restricting the sale of locksmith tools to the general public.

raimundo is right - banning bump keys specifically won't achieve much. I would guess most who use them make them rather than buy them. And you'd have to carry a large bunch around. And bumping does still require learning, skill and practice.

In the UK we used to have wooden front doors. Almost invariably, those doors had two locks - a lever lock (which most UK people call a 'mortise' lock) and a pin cylinder (which most UK people call a 'Yale').

Then uPVC hit the ground running and doors were changed from wooden with lever lock to uPVC with euro cylinder pin tumbler lock. Not only reducing security by removing the lever lock, but also reducing it through inherent design flaws in pin tumblers and the additional security flaws inherent in euro cylinders and the additional security flaws inherent in uPVC rather than solid wood doors.

People with uPVC doors hear all those clunking noises when they lift the handle to set the multipoint system and it makes them feel very secure. Few have any idea that the thing locking all those bolts and hooks in place is often distressingly weak.

Cheers...

[pin_pusher]

if i might add: the bump key serves a specifically pragmatic purpose; insofar as it achieves it's "good tool" status, something that is functional and easy to use (with some practice). distributing it leaves a pleasant trail to investigations pertaining to persons responsible for its use or misuse.
secondly, anyone capable of making other tools for the sake of lock manipulation may have the means to make bump keys as well, so ban or don't ban--people will make what they want. i'm on the side of don't ban, because it doesn't pay to make more legislation against tools that aren't commonly used by criminals. inherent flaws need to be rethought, locksmiths need access to the best tools for their job. threat does not outweigh benefit for this particular item.

We all know that the most common form of illegal entry is destructive and not through picking or bumping locks

[globallockytoo]

I think locksmiths should display the bump key technique to as many people as possible - and upsell at the same time. It is a great source of business.

[raimundo]

I believe that some locksmiths are the most likely to use bump keys, as criminals do not carry key cutters and blanks,
No doubt there are locksmiths who keep bump keys for common keyways as a routine bench tool or in the truck just because its a quick way to get the job done
In fact if you want to make a bump key for some lock, you should probably have a code machine, as the depths and spacing are different from one lock to another, so if criminals are bumping, there should be a law against selling code machines to them.

Bumping locks can be made to seem easy on youtube but you need a correct bump key and the knowlege of what you are doing along with practice and skill. Mark tobias can teach an 11 yearold to do it, but its unlikely any eleven year old could bump a lock with Mr Tobias there to coach her the first time and supply the bump key
Probably that video has inspired a lot of kids to try it and they have failed and decided that it dosen't work. Children dont have the skills to make these things, look at all the threads here titled 'my bump key dosent' work"

[raimundo]

If you are worried about your lock being bumped, do the ace II trick on it, put the strongest stainless steel springs over the shortest pins and put weak copper springs over all the longest bottom pins. This will make bumping much harder.

[79commando]

Ban the Bump Key. What an excellent marketing ploy relying on suckers to fall for the title.

I'll let you into a secret now that it has served its purpose and sold the gear that it needed to sell.

Step one: Find a niche market that's not yet a problem (Bumping).

Step two. Develop a cheap method of preventing the non existant problem.

Step three. Make Bumping a problem by posting it on locksmith forums, knowing they all talk and word will get around. Take out adverts, put posts up on You Tube etc.

Step Four: Start selling the miracle cure to the masses courtesy of more free advertising than you could have hoped for.

Step five. Develop Bump Proof Locks and start that ball rolling.

Sometimes people can't see the wood for the trees.

[dallalama]

there are some interesting reply s to this topic
As i understand it bumping has been around for a long time ,but was only known to those in the locksmith trade for the longest time ,its now out (or has been out for a long time depending were you live ) ive never heard a news report in Australia about bumping locks ,its probable happen here ,but its still fairly newish here. i have know about it for two years ,and im one of the slow ones . i am sure there a a lot of people here that are aware of it tried it and are still using it,as for banning the bump key ,never going to happen ,i think it more of a knee jerk reaction as its easier to be reactive,than it is to be pro active.

i was worry about having bump keys, than i repined my back veranda glass sliding door to open with a key that was cut to 99999 ,that way its no longer a bump key it work on one of the locks in my house and i had a reason for having it,so how can you ban that

[Gozzo]

[quote="dallalama"

as for banning the bump key ,never going to happen

Allready has happened in Qld






having it,so how can you ban that[/quote]
Easy they have called it a 99999 key, or a bump key, or any key or reasonable facsimile thereof, or any key cut to the lowest extremities of it's range. Qld politicians are great like that.

[psychofish]

I work in LE here in the states, when ever I work a breaking and entering I now (thanks to LP101) look at the door locks, and when booking a suspect I look over their keys while I count them (must have an exact number for property inventory anyways) I've yet to come across a bump key in doing so. I will say a lot of the B&E are just as simple as something hard through a window, or arn't even breaking in, the door was never locked to begin with. Even talking with prisoners who have been booked on charges coupled with "burglary tools" have been nothing more than screw drivers.

[dallalama]

mate i have a theory, that career criminals could probably, Evan prefer to open a door/window with screw drivers ,crowbars. quicker than if they were using bump keys.as there are less steps than obtaining a screw driver than a bump key,i am sure criminals do us them ,but i don,t think it is that widely spread ,I live in a small town 5000+ people,with a higher than average crime rate ,and it seems to be a small minority of people that continually re-offending ,and i am sure there are others in this town that know about bump keys and to my knowledge it has not been used as away of entry that has been advertised .keep looking you will find a crim with a bump key ,but i don,t think it will be that often