Semi-pick proof lock

[vov35]

haven't we already discussed the issue with sectioned plugs? xD I think you've just created a mechanical nightmare of figuring out how to keep the thing together...

[FarmerFreak]

haven't we already discussed the issue with sectioned plugs? xD I think you've just created a mechanical nightmare of figuring out how to keep the thing together...

I'm guessing you are talking about the design I posted a few posts back.

The Plug the key goes into is one piece. It's just the sleeves that the plug goes through that are sectioned. There shouldn't be any problems keeping it all together.

Mine isn't too much like that design, although from the looks of it, I like the idea. Mine is more along the lines of the trap pins striking or releasing a mechanism to cause a trap pin or something else to fall into a chamber not accessible by picks in order to jam the lock. (just like my original design did)

...I have to admit that read into your post enough to grasp the concept that your trap pins weren't using the regular chambers. Considering that you posted it in this thread I should have known better. Sorry.

[xBMW M3 GTR]

haven't we already discussed the issue with sectioned plugs? xD I think you've just created a mechanical nightmare of figuring out how to keep the thing together...

I'm guessing you are talking about the design I posted a few posts back.

The Plug the key goes into is one piece. It's just the sleeves that the plug goes through that are sectioned. There shouldn't be any problems keeping it all together.

Mine isn't too much like that design, although from the looks of it, I like the idea. Mine is more along the lines of the trap pins striking or releasing a mechanism to cause a trap pin or something else to fall into a chamber not accessible by picks in order to jam the lock. (just like my original design did)

...I have to admit that read into your post enough to grasp the concept that your trap pins weren't using the regular chambers. Considering that you posted it in this thread I should have known better. Sorry.

No worries.

I seemed to have made a huge mistake. I overshot the concept of the 6 outer rings...No clue why I was thinking 6 shear lines (as in having 1 inner plug and 5 outer plugs). Always been too quick of a thinker. Anyway, I think the idea of the 6 outer rings is just genius. I was drawing up dozens of ways to change the locking trap pin activation system, all of which were overly complicated and in the end were just bad ideas. I don't think I ever would've thought of that.

[vov35]

yes, but as discussed in another thread under tosl, you'd need to prevent picking of just the last section of plug...

[FarmerFreak]

yes, but as discussed in another thread under tosl, you'd need to prevent picking of just the last section of plug...

Umm, I think I mentioned this already but the plug isn't sectioned. Only the rings around the plug are sectioned. The plug is still one solid piece from the face to the back where a cam or tailpiece would be attached.

[vov35]

which means that always picking to the bottom shear line would operate the lock?

I mentioned that because I saw a design in this thread to make rotation of the plug only activate a trap...

[FarmerFreak]

which means that always picking to the bottom shear line would operate the lock?

In the original design, yes.
In the newer version that I displayed, no.

In the newer version the shear line is random per chamber, pending on the location of the trap pin specific to that chamber.

[Evan]

which means that always picking to the bottom shear line would operate the lock?

In the original design, yes.
In the newer version that I displayed, no.

In the newer version the shear line is random per chamber, pending on the location of the trap pin specific to that chamber.

So would these locks with random shear lines per chamber work with any bitting depth in that chamber or are you talking a specifically designed lock for every different bitting you would use ? Could these locks be master keyed or would that capability not be recommended ?

~~ Evan

[FarmerFreak]

Good questions Evan.

So would these locks with random shear lines per chamber work with any bitting depth in that chamber or are you talking a specifically designed lock for every different bitting you would use ?

I wouldn't want to key a really shallow cut the the bottom shear line, or adversely key any really deep cuts to the top shear line.

But I don't think there will be any real issues with any specific depths now that the shear line (per chamber) can be changed by moving around/rearranging the trap pins. So the overall design wouldn't change, just the location of the trap pins.

Could these locks be master keyed or would that capability not be recommended ?

Haven't thought much about it before you asked. In general I'm not a fan of masterkeying, because of how much it lowers the physical security. But that would also mean it wouldn't even be looked at by a large corporation.

Anyways, on to the question. Yes I believe it "could" be masterkeyed, but it would be very restricted on how it could be masterkeyed. Obviously you wouldn't even want to run the risk of being able to have both shear lines set at the same time. And that means you would be limited to the larger master pins. Which would severely restrict your keying options. Well, you could use the shorter master pins. But the possibility of it failing, even once, scares me.

My opinion is that it shouldn't be masterkeyed and only used in areas that need the extra security of having the cylinder completely locked out when picked/impressioned. Which pretty much means I can't think of a place in America that it would be used, unless the government wanted it somewhere. Of course in places like Europe where they use trap pins more regularly, I'm sure there are people that would like the extra pick/impression resistance. Except they would likely have to install a custom lock to support it. I don't think it could be made to fit a standard euro/profile cylinder. ...Maybe it could fit a standard profile cylinder if the outer trap pin(s) where placed where xBMW M3 GTR had first placed them. It may still have to be a wider cylinder than normal.

[xBMW M3 GTR]

Good questions Evan.

So would these locks with random shear lines per chamber work with any bitting depth in that chamber or are you talking a specifically designed lock for every different bitting you would use ?

I wouldn't want to key a really shallow cut the the bottom shear line, or adversely key any really deep cuts to the top shear line.

But I don't think there will be any real issues with any specific depths now that the shear line (per chamber) can be changed by moving around/rearranging the trap pins. So the overall design wouldn't change, just the location of the trap pins.

Could these locks be master keyed or would that capability not be recommended ?

Haven't thought much about it before you asked. In general I'm not a fan of masterkeying, because of how much it lowers the physical security. But that would also mean it wouldn't even be looked at by a large corporation.

Anyways, on to the question. Yes I believe it "could" be masterkeyed, but it would be very restricted on how it could be masterkeyed. Obviously you wouldn't even want to run the risk of being able to have both shear lines set at the same time. And that means you would be limited to the larger master pins. Which would severely restrict your keying options. Well, you could use the shorter master pins. But the possibility of it failing, even once, scares me.

My opinion is that it shouldn't be masterkeyed and only used in areas that need the extra security of having the cylinder completely locked out when picked/impressioned. Which pretty much means I can't think of a place in America that it would be used, unless the government wanted it somewhere. Of course in places like Europe where they use trap pins more regularly, I'm sure there are people that would like the extra pick/impression resistance. Except they would likely have to install a custom lock to support it. I don't think it could be made to fit a standard euro/profile cylinder. ...Maybe it could fit a standard profile cylinder if the outer trap pin(s) where placed where xBMW M3 GTR had first placed them. It may still have to be a wider cylinder than normal.

Not really familiar with Euro locks, so I cant really tell if a Euro style would be good or not for this lock. As for master keying, I just smell trouble when it comes to that. I do think this would be a good lock for residential use. There would be no need for it to be master keyed (even in a situation of a landlord owning several houses and wanting a master key for them all..I just find a key for each house to work better as far as security goes) Im thinking this lock should work out fine and might start the prototype in the next few weeks (though id need to think of a way to disassemble it with trap pins engaged since the ring(s) would be bound to the plug)...as for the prototype part...its not going to be anything too fancy..maybe just made out of an old lock plug (only 5 chambers even though I'd like this lock to have 6 or 7) and the outer rings would be cut rings of copper pipe. I was thinking use wood, but nah.

Also quick idea...Looking at the posted diagrams as well as some I've drawn out myself, theres not a ton of room for te trap pin chambers in the plug. For things to work properly, from the looks of it the trap pin chamber in the lock housing would also need to be the same size as that of the plug, and the design wouldn't properly allow the use of too big of an outer ring...with the limited trap chamber room, what about instead of having a spring push the pin, use matching magnetic poles, and have a small but semi-powerful magnetic insert to put into the trap chamber (I know making the whole plug magnetic may cause trouble) along with a trap pins which has the same polarization as the insert,so once the trap chambers are aligned from improper picking, the magnetic pin is repelled out of its housing chamber, and into the trap chamber to block both shear lines. If a magnetic insert per chamber is not possible due to lack of space or lack of magnetizing such a small insert, maybe have a space cut out of the inner plug for a magnetized insert to slide into the space and this whole plug length insert would be magnetized itself.

[Evan]

As for master keying, I just smell trouble when it comes to that. I do think this would be a good lock for residential use. There would be no need for it to be master keyed (even in a situation of a landlord owning several houses and wanting a master key for them all..I just find a key for each house to work better as far as security goes)

So to clarify your intended application for this "design" is standalone single dwelling residences only ?

That rules out quite a bit of the residential market as many places where three or more dwelling units are located in the same building the AHJ will require a lock box with keys for the fire department... In a complex with hundreds of units in a building not being able to master key the locks would be a cumbersome task to provide said access...

This is especially crucial in buildings protected by a fire alarm system as access to all parts of the building protected by the system is required...

~~ Evan

[xBMW M3 GTR]

As for master keying, I just smell trouble when it comes to that. I do think this would be a good lock for residential use. There would be no need for it to be master keyed (even in a situation of a landlord owning several houses and wanting a master key for them all..I just find a key for each house to work better as far as security goes)

So to clarify your intended application for this "design" is standalone single dwelling residences only ?

That rules out quite a bit of the residential market as many places where three or more dwelling units are located in the same building the AHJ will require a lock box with keys for the fire department... In a complex with hundreds of units in a building not being able to master key the locks would be a cumbersome task to provide said access...

This is especially crucial in buildings protected by a fire alarm system as access to all parts of the building protected by the system is required...

~~ Evan

Hmm..well Its not to say that it can't be master keyed, though it might greatly affect security...although with those master pins in there, it could cause a greater chance of setting off the trap, which really isn't that huge of a problem. I'd just like to have it more difficult to pick (no master pins) so that there is a lower chance of the picker picking the lock to set off the trap, causing the oner to need to call a locksmith to reset the lock. I guess either way the trap will be set with picking and protecting the occupants from being intruded.

[FarmerFreak]

I would still avoid materkeying the cylinders.

...But if having two keys open the door is a must. We don't need to look any further than Kwikset to find the answer.
http://www.kwikset.com/keycontrol/default.aspx

Obviously it would have to be larger than a standard deadbolt to get these trap pinned cylinders to work this way. But it's clearly doable.

[xBMW M3 GTR]

I would still avoid materkeying the cylinders.

...But if having two keys open the door is a must. We don't need to look any further than Kwikset to find the answer.
http://www.kwikset.com/keycontrol/default.aspx

Obviously it would have to be larger than a standard deadbolt to get these trap pinned cylinders to work this way. But it's clearly doable.

I was thinking of the use of 2 key ways, but didnt really like the idea. I guess if it was really needed, the lock could be made that way. But now, over all, im alright with the idea. Didnt think they had those..kwiksets always cominjg out with something it seems...

[Evan]

I would still avoid materkeying the cylinders.

...But if having two keys open the door is a must. We don't need to look any further than Kwikset to find the answer.
http://www.kwikset.com/keycontrol/default.aspx

Obviously it would have to be larger than a standard deadbolt to get these trap pinned cylinders to work this way. But it's clearly doable.

I have yet to see those locks installed on any apartment complexes and I am even aware of several medium sized complexes that utilize Kwikset deadbolts on the individual unit doors...

The requirement of using a tool and the key and having to rotate the faceplate might be something that a landlord is willing to do if they own a few houses, but not something the fire department is going to be willing to do to access those units in larger complexes...

So until Kwikset makes one of those deadbolts with both cylinders exposed and the upper "master" access cylinder painted red to indicate it is to operate with the fire department key I would not consider it a valid option for code compliance in buildings where the AHJ requires access to all units due to a fire alarm system...

~~ Evan