Are Electronic keypad locks on Gun safes more secure than...

[hzatorsk]

To the original poster:

The group numbers refer Underwriter Laboratory ratings to the locks ability to resist 'expert manipulation'. A Group 1 lock can withstand 20 hours, A Group 1R is also X-Ray resistant (which means it typically has plastic dials that don't show on X-rays.). These are SERIOUS locks and only true masters of the art will get past them in any reasonable time.

Generally, a Group 1 lock will require you to do something that forces you to 'commit' to the dialed combination before knowing if it will open the lock. Sometimes this is a small knob turn... other times you must push in the dial and turn it. This resets the lock to make you dial the entire combination again if you are wrong. Obviously, you can't feel your way to getting 'close' on these types of locks. Many Group 1 locks are also very intolerant of sloppy dialing.

Group 2 locks are the next step down. They are secure... but not so much as the Group 1 locks. Many Group 2 locks tend to have the retractor built into dial... so... if you are wrong on the combination, you don't commit to redialing the entire combination again. Therefore, they are easier to manipulate... but the average joe of the street will find them exceeding difficult to guess or get lucky with. Typically 2 hours to manipulate according to the UL Rating.

Overall... if absolute security is what you are after... Choose the Group 1. If cost is a factor: Group 2 locks are used by many institutions to protect more money than you and I will ever see.

Hope that helps.

Harold

[Romstar]

I have seen this exploit in action.

It's been tested. It does work.

Kaba have been informed of the pertinent information.

I suspect that no change has been made specifically because the technique and tools are not made available for the bypass.

It has nothing to do with manipulating the dial, although that is possible. Just not in a timely, or covert manner.

This bypass does damage the lock, but also opens the container. Presumably another lock would be fitted after an opening was successful.

At the present time, I find no reason to downgrade the X-09 lock, nor do I suspect that it will be a problem in the future.

However, it is sufficient to remind everyone that anything that can be locked, can be unlocked.

Romstar

[KabaGirl]

Guitar J - I came across your message last Friday about your wishes to tour our facilities. I work at Kaba Mas in the tech support department, and my manager thought that was pretty interesting. If you really are interested in a tour, I'd be glad to check into it for you. Just let me know one way or another. You can email me or catch me on Yahoo! instant messenger.

[hzatorsk]

KabaGirl,

...some time back in the X-07 days, I obtained a video put out by Mas Hamilton that was half X-07 installation/troubleshooting guide and half company and technology. I remember it showing the high voltage static tests and various other punishments the lock endured.

Is there any chance those videos have been redone for the new products?

Instead of incurring the costs of sending those videos out to every hobbiest that wouldn't really be a customer candidate... turning those videos into MPEGs and posting them on your site would be beneficial to us AND your marketing efforts.

Hint! Hint!

Harold

[Mad Mick]

Guitar J and KabaGirl sitting in a tree, K.I.S.......

Seriously, if you can get the tour Guitar J, please take it and tell us about the plant and manufacturing process etc.

KabaGirl: Please stick around here, there are some very competent professionals, and hobby pickers alike. Input/comments from a manufacturer's representative may spark ingeneous feedback to your R&D dep't.

[KabaGirl]

I plan on sticking around. It makes my job more interesting! Thanks!

[Romstar]

Making your job interesting is picking a lock while you are on the phone with a customer while doing tech support.

Be careful, you might catch the bug.

It's great to have you here.
Romstar

[kjj]

I have seen this exploit in action.

It's been tested. It does work.

Kaba have been informed of the pertinent information.

I suspect that no change has been made specifically because the technique and tools are not made available for the bypass.

It has nothing to do with manipulating the dial, although that is possible. Just not in a timely, or covert manner.

This bypass does damage the lock, but also opens the container. Presumably another lock would be fitted after an opening was successful.

At the present time, I find no reason to downgrade the X-09 lock, nor do I suspect that it will be a problem in the future.

However, it is sufficient to remind everyone that anything that can be locked, can be unlocked.

Romstar

Things get a bit strange when you add electronics to the mix. The people who research breaks on tamper proof electronics are incredibly creative

Think things like injecting microwave radiation into a cryptographic smart card to see which bits get messed up, or analyzing which parts of it are drawing current compared to selected inputs.

[Romstar]

Things get a bit strange when you add electronics to the mix. The people who research breaks on tamper proof electronics are incredibly creative

Think things like injecting microwave radiation into a cryptographic smart card to see which bits get messed up, or analyzing which parts of it are drawing current compared to selected inputs.

Now, here is someone who is on the right track.

There are a lot of things you can do with electronics once you know where the electrons are going. There are only so many different ways to move them around.

Romstar

[thertel]

I'm somehow picturing a very large capacitor bank blowing tons of power into the lock.


Thomas

[kjj]

FF-L2740A specifies testing for ESD hardness at 250,000 volts. Using hardware store stuff, you can make a Tesla coil with more voltage than that, but realistically there isn't any point. If it resists 250kv, it isn't doing it with insulation, but by providing a "safe" discharge path.

Interestingly, the spec also seems to require that the lock be TEMPEST shielded.

[Romstar]

I'm somehow picturing a very large capacitor bank blowing tons of power into the lock.


Thomas

Doing something like that will scramble the lock, and throw the relocker. At which point, you now have a few new problems.

No, that's not the solution. At least, not on the X-09.

Romstar

[thertel]

I was thinking cheap electronic locks. I would love to get my hands on an x-09 I know some electro mechanical engineers who'd love to take it apart to figure it out.. Need to find a safe technician and see if I can shadow him a bit. Maybe they aren't squirley like the smiths in this area...

Thomas

[Romstar]

FF-L2740A specifies testing for ESD hardness at 250,000 volts. Using hardware store stuff, you can make a Tesla coil with more voltage than that, but realistically there isn't any point. If it resists 250kv, it isn't doing it with insulation, but by providing a "safe" discharge path.

Interestingly, the spec also seems to require that the lock be TEMPEST shielded.

It is required to be tempest shielded. That shielding can be overcome though, and it isn't all that hard.

Anyone who has ever heard of a SQUID will know what you can do with the right tools. Now, the average squid requires a lot of room and power, but there are much smaller versions in use by several agencies and private companies.

If you know what you are doing, you could make one yourself. Although, this is a little more advanced than your average high school physics class.

Just as in standard picking, the right tools make all the difference.

Romstar

[thertel]

Wow I can' t believe it would be tempest shielded now that is hard core....

Thomas