Better mousetrap ?

[Ortin468]

Hmmmm build a better mousetrap...

Has anyone focused on making the tension wrench part of the picking process, more difficult?

A few ideas.

1) Strong magnets in the door to put a false feeling on the tension wrench.
2) Something to obstruct the tension wrench.
3) Recess the cylinder deeper in the door.
4) A spring loaded collar in front of the cylinder, loaded in the opposite direction need to unlock the cylinder.
5) Some type of barrier around the cylinder area.

Any other ideas to foil the tension wrench part out there ? Think outside the box.

[Pin_pick]

Maybe some kind of extrusion that would stop the handle of the wrench, or maybe a small flat platform right under the lock.

[vov35]

and then I attached some spring steel to a filed down keyblank and used it for a tensioner.

[Theist17]

and then I attached some spring steel to a filed down keyblank and used it for a tensioner.

This right here is basically the method of attack for any keyway. I don't care if it's shaped like the Meander River with weird shrouds and bumps on the inside that make a high school wrestler's back acne look like a rough itch; that key has to fit that keyway. A little JB Weld and a set of files is all you need to make the perfect tension tool for it.

[vov35]

What I really think we should be doing is straying away from the concept of a pin tumbler...

We need some (somewhat) original mechanism to provide some serious resistance to traditional attacks.

There's a reason disk detainer locks are nice... because they have nothing to do with the traditional locking mechanism.

[Theist17]

What about a key that blooms? Like a rose, opening up past the keyway.

That's a really ridiculous way of putting it, but the idea I'm thinking of would be a keyway which is a pinhole. This pinhole would open to a slightly larger cavity in the body of the lock, the pins of which would be mounted vertically in a grid as opposed to horizontally in a line.

The key would turn the lock via a warded shank. Imagine the result of a barrel key and a cylinder key mating, and you have the idea for the warding. The tricky bit of this admittedly fragile key would be the blooming function. Several prongs, actuated by a plunger in the bow, would spring out once past the keyway and engage the pins. The warding on the blade of the key turns the lock once the shear line is reached by all pins.

I admit that this is still a pin-tumbler system, but it's certainly something which would require a certain measure of skill, resources, and research to make duplicate keys or know how to pick.

I'll draw a diagram when I'm not quite so sleepy and post it later, but you know sort of what I'm saying, right?

[weerwolf]

Maybe we could use a core that has a wide keyway , below where the pins are. There should be an obstruction disk in front of the core , so only a thin key can fit through. This disk should be able to rotate slighty , separate from the core.

The key itself would put rotation pressure on the core at the area where the pins are. If you would try to use a tension wrench , you can't tension the core directly without getting in the way of the pins. If pressure is put on the obstruction disk , it will move in the way of the keyhole.
Even if a cut down key blank is used , it will be useless.

I hope this makes sence.

[Theist17]

Wouldn't such a key be prone to shearing off at the keyway?

[vov35]

hmm... how about a wafer lock, where the wafers grip the key from both sides, and the opening on them is significantly smaller than the width of the keyway.

Then you could have a key that sets wafers on such a sharp diagonal that the use of traditional picking implements would be impossible (the key itself is a zig zag shape where picks are generally more or less straight)

[Tyler J. Thomas]

There's a reason disk detainer locks are nice... because they have nothing to do with the traditional locking mechanism.

Disk detainers are simply on a different tangent, not wave length. It's not "our" traditional locking flavor because European countries, like most foreign countries, are capable of designing their own products, mechanisms, etc. It doesn't mean it's any better; they're simply operating on a different tangent. I gaurantee it'd be extrapolated if we could never see, touch, or experiment with their products and vice versa.

I wish disk detainers were the standard here. They're incredible easy to drill open and decode given the right tools and knowledge. You don't have to destroy the pin stacks like you do with a pin tumbler.

[vov35]

There's a reason disk detainer locks are nice... because they have nothing to do with the traditional locking mechanism.

Disk detainers are simply on a different tangent, not wave length. It's not "our" traditional locking flavor because European countries, like most foreign countries, are capable of designing their own products, mechanisms, etc. It doesn't mean it's any better; they're simply operating on a different tangent. I gaurantee it'd be extrapolated if we could never see, touch, or experiment with their products and vice versa.

I wish disk detainers were the standard here. They're incredible easy to drill open and decode given the right tools and knowledge. You don't have to destroy the pin stacks like you do with a pin tumbler.

The ease of drilling them is really sad... I saw videos of the abloy eater on youtube.... would it really be that hard to make some immovable disks attached to the cylinder to prevent the whole set of them from coming out? I mean, the lock would be vulnerable to decoding after that, but at least it wouldn't just pop out and operate with a flathead screwdriver.

[Tyler J. Thomas]

There's a reason disk detainer locks are nice... because they have nothing to do with the traditional locking mechanism.

Disk detainers are simply on a different tangent, not wave length. It's not "our" traditional locking flavor because European countries, like most foreign countries, are capable of designing their own products, mechanisms, etc. It doesn't mean it's any better; they're simply operating on a different tangent. I gaurantee it'd be extrapolated if we could never see, touch, or experiment with their products and vice versa.

I wish disk detainers were the standard here. They're incredible easy to drill open and decode given the right tools and knowledge. You don't have to destroy the pin stacks like you do with a pin tumbler.

The ease of drilling them is really sad... I saw videos of the abloy eater on youtube.... would it really be that <censored> hard to make some immovable disks attached to the cylinder to prevent the whole set of them from coming out? I mean, the lock would be vulnerable to decoding after that, but at least it wouldn't just pop out and operate with a flathead screwdriver.

Not sure we can get into specifics regarding DE, specifically drilling them. If we're thinking of the same drill bit (if you can call it that), movable disks would not batter because it's not attacking the disks or relying on their immobility to work.

[vov35]

I don't think discussing DE should be that much of an issue... you need to understand it to defeat it.... what I was suggesting was adding disks in between the moving ones, so when the front is drilled out, only one or two can be removed.

[Tyler J. Thomas]

I don't think discussing DE should be that much of an issue... you need to understand it to defeat it.... what I was suggesting was adding disks in between the moving ones, so when the front is drilled out, only one or two can be removed.

What's stopping the rest from being removed? How are you going to incorporate those disks without rendering the key inoperable?

[vov35]

actually I realized that getting the lock together as I proposed would be near impossible...

but uhm... imagine if instead of every third disk there was a ward. the key would have cuts to allow it to turn, but a drilling attack would only allow removal of two discs at a time before requiring drilling through more metal. ... this ward would also need to have a cut out where the sidebar(s) are, potentially making decoding easier for somebody well equipped once the lock has been drilled.

The idea is really to slow down drilling efforts, obviously DE cannot be completely prevented by the lock itself.