Digital Analog Key

[Violaetor]

Simply put, each pinstack is monitored in vertical position by a digital scale(no key rotation is necessary), as the key passes across them, they are each lifted in sequence through the various up/down cyclical actions until the key reaches the final position. The movement of the pins is monitored on a positive/negative scale, where each pin has to hit certain marks at specific times in conjunction with the other pins.

I guess you could equate it to a digital combination lock with a near infinite number of combinations with a minimal tolerance for user/hacker error.

But really in the end if you can make it, someone can break it.

If anyone wants more specifics, or if whats in my mind is unclear in text, I'll add more/clarify. But I must take the little lady to Sesame Street Live!

Vio

[ckc123]

how about a pizoelectric senson on the top of a tradition style pin stack to detect the pressure that is applied by each pin, with multiple sensors you can detect the different heights (higher pin = more compression on spring = higher current).

there would be no "shear" effect as it's just a single pin. once the correct levels are detected across the pins it would electronically released the latch.

[Violaetor]

That would be a static "number" for each pin, thusly fewer combinations.

My idea is that as each pin is passed with each peak and valley it has to follow a certain "combination"

Let's say as the key is inserted:

The first pin must travel through a range of -3 to +3

Now as you hit the next peak/valley of the bitting, the 2nd pin must also travel through that same range (-3 +3) while simultaneously moving the first pin through its 2nd phase -1 to +2

Then the 3rd pin would go through -3 / +3 at the same time 2nd pin simultaneously requires the -1 / +2 and now the first pin require 0 / +3

repeating this process for each pinstack.

So the first pin would go through 5 phases of a +/- scale, 2nd pin 4 phases, 3rd pin 3 phases etc, which all happen simultaneously.

If it occurs out of phase or out of order the combination would not be met thusly not opened.

[Tyler J. Thomas]

Sold this exact idea, along with a few others, to Assa Abloy in 2008.

[vov35]

and it's all being powered... how?

[Tyler J. Thomas]

and it's all being powered... how?

I obviously can't speak about the specifics because that would violate the NDA I have with Assa Abloy. Hopefully 5, 10, 15 years down the line they have a lock out on the market that uses it and I can point to it as an example.

[vov35]

Sure. Just wondering about the possibility of retrofitting to cylinders. I guess you could follow the medeco/cyberlock approach of having a battery in the key if you wanted to.

So... what advantages does this have over a purely electronic mechanism? I guess it's more resistant to high voltages, but also it's that much easier to duplicate a key...

[Violaetor]

Regardless of the type or level of security of any lock, if you have access to the key to make duplicates, the issue is a moot point.

However, in this type of lock there would be no way to create a key based off of the internals or impressioning, as each pin has the capability of traveling the same distance and has identical resistance.

[sfi72]

Yes, however since the pins are not physically blocking the plug from turning all of this will have to be packed into a fairly small space in order to adhere to current standards. Also, because of the pins not blocking the plug you will need something else to block it, most likely a sidebar with a steel pin that is retracted(no nylon pins like ASSA has been using, im pretty sure these would break pretty easily under tension.) or something, you would have to make sure none of the common attacks would damage/open the lock(strong magnet, raking, force, vibration, no contact points that could interfere with the locks electronics accessible from the inside of the keyway, etc.)

The idea does sound great in theory however I think that the level of complexity required in order to make a proper, secure lock means it will be a while before ASSA Abloy gets a proper product out of it(if they dont just decide to abandon the project).


Also as a final note the second your key starts to wear, the pins wont move up as much and this means you will have to have fairly loose tolerances to accommodate for the wear, and less tolerances == less resistance to attack. And if the lock can easily be raked open then you have to set a lockout period after too many pin movements(which could also have some usability ramifications if for some reason people find a way to easily set the lockout off during normal use.)

[Violaetor]

This lock would be near impossible to conventionally pick, as every single pin would needed to be moved in a synchronized ballet, if a pin was moved out of order or the wrong time, or didn't travel the correct distance, the attempt would be nullified.

Something as simple as your pick hitting the front pin when working at the back in a tumbler can be an inconvenience if you over set that pin. Where as if you moved any pin in my suggested lock incorrectly you would have to start over, and unless you can fit in 5 picks, and move them all simultaneously in different directions, you're gonna have a hard time picking.

As always the exception being if you have a rake that just so happens to fit the bitting (basically making it the key) then "raking" would work. Fixed with chip in key technology.

[Evan]

This lock would be near impossible to conventionally pick, as every single pin would needed to be moved in a synchronized ballet, if a pin was moved out of order or the wrong time, or didn't travel the correct distance, the attempt would be nullified.

Something as simple as your pick hitting the front pin when working at the back in a tumbler can be an inconvenience if you over set that pin. Where as if you moved any pin in my suggested lock incorrectly you would have to start over, and unless you can fit in 5 picks, and move them all simultaneously in different directions, you're gonna have a hard time picking.

As always the exception being if you have a rake that just so happens to fit the bitting (basically making it the key) then "raking" would work. Fixed with chip in key technology.

So what would stop someone who knows what they are doing from learning to recognize your special cylinder and attacking the solenoid or the lock case ?

Just saying, you can make the switch as fancy as you want but it is still just satisfying the programmed logic to trip a relay output to cycle the lock...

~~ Evan

[vov35]

I'm sure there's a variety of locking hardware that could be used...

I just don't see the advantage over any other kind of electronic lock.

[Evan]

I'm sure there's a variety of locking hardware that could be used...

I just don't see the advantage over any other kind of electronic lock.

Agreed, I think it would require far too much processing power and memory to store the "evolution" which the pin stacks must progress through in order to reach the final resting position with a properly cut key inserted in the lock...

Remember most electronic hardware is basically all comm protocols with just a code number read from the credential which is then transmitted to the central controller... This idea would require a lot of computing power at the local lock controller box as well as some pretty precise and correctly synchronized detection apparatus which would need to remain reliably operable in all weather conditions and temperatures...

There are some great ideas that flow through the threads in this forum it just seems to me that they all seem to be best suited for the most ideal of site conditions and applications...

~~ Evan

[vov35]

you could use only two sensors, one for key position, one for reading the data... bitting... but then why even bother with a mechanical key.

A digital magnetic key using a hall effect sensor could be interesting.

[LinZex]

With the technology we have today, i believe that it is possible to put distance sensors in every chamber, my thought was that the sensors would send a value to a controlbox inside the house that would then unlock whichever door the key is in, in this case all pins would need to be held at the right height at the same time, the cylinder i believe it's called wouldn't be able to turn to lock any pins. I have quickly illustrated this idea here: http://i.imgur.com/WLF4Qjr.png


LinZex