Another idea... combining two locks

[shirtninjas]

Just a quick off note, but has anyone tried to make a combination lock with a tubular pin-cylinder for a spindle? A key must be inserted to turn the dial, that is. I'm not sure whether this would really provide extra security, but it seems like a good idea in theory.

[vov35]

I think I'd rather use a multidial combo lock with proper false gates an a seperate key for each. I mean, who's gonna carry 3-4 tube picks to be able to pick the whole thing?

[Solomon]

Neat idea. Would be annoying to use with a standard key, but if you made the key so that it integrated into the dial like a sort of cap, it would be very nice. Making it so the key actually stayed in place might prove tricky though... and it would have to be made well enough to prevent shimming otherwise the whole thing would be pointless.

[Warden Smith]

i think if that was made, i would bump it and then use a plug spinner. still, its a good idea and would mean you would have to carry more kit with you to get into it.

[Solomon]

i think if that was made, i would bump it and then use a plug spinner. still, its a good idea and would mean you would have to carry more kit with you to get into it.

We're talking about a combination dial which needs a key to turn it... like integrating a tubular type lock into the dial, with the shear line where the dial and body seperate, and the spindle running through the center as normal to turn the discs. The dial couldn't turn without the correct key, and if it was picked/bumped it'd only turn a few degrees before resetting.

With that in mind, even if you knew the combo it'd take forever to dial it, and the owner would know it'd been messed with because in all but one configuration the key would no longer work. You'd need to have the key and the combo to open it, or be able to simulate/impression a key to turn the dial freely enough to decode it.

It'd be quite expensive to make because the keys would need to be different for each lock, otherwise someone could just buy one and use their key to free up the dial on others to decode them as normal. If they were able to make something like this and it couldn't be shimmed though, it'd be a hell of a lock.

[vov35]

or use multiple dials keyed differently to help resist impressioning, and don't use a tube, which will make the slowish process of manipulation based impressioning the only non-DE attack. I wouldn't use key retention. The owner could detect tampering by remembering what numbers he left it on, as whatever locks you use wouldn't turn on their own.

[Warden Smith]

and if it was picked/bumped it'd only turn a few degrees before resetting.

.

why would it reset after a few degrees ? would it not only reset at the 12 o'clock position ?

[Solomon]

why would it reset after a few degrees ? would it not only reset at the 12 o'clock position ?

The way tubular locks work, if you pick one with normal tools the drivers will lock up again as the pins line up in the next position. Have a look at one and picture it in your head, you'll see what I mean. That's why the picks for them work by impressioning, the key pins need to be held at their correct heights during the rotation to stop the drivers just popping back into random chambers.

[CastleBravo]

I thought about this too, but instead of an easy to impression tubular lock, it should use a sidebar lock such as a BiLock or a Medeco, so many sidebar notches can be made, causing it to relock very frequently. To pick it, you would have to be able to quickly and reliably pick a BiLock, Medeco, etc. and be able to crack the combination between picking the key lock. With a good combination lock (the mechanism from something like a S&G 8077 would work nicely) it would be almost impossible to defeat.

[vov35]

what's to stop you from impressioning that mechanism?