custom top pins

[shortlineflyer]

I am thinking of buying either steel bar or brass bar stock and creating some custom top pins. i want to see i can make some thing new and more secure than spool, serrated and mushroom pins.
anyone got any suugestions/

[FarmerFreak]

Are you familiar with Schlages T drivers? They used them in their F series knobs/levers. The top part of the T goes towards the key pin and the spring goes around the side of the pin. Schlage did that so they could have a compressable spring cap.

Ok, enough of how Schlage uses them. If you want something really hard to pick. Put two of those T pins in each chamber, don't use them for really shallow cuts, they aren't long enough. So you'll need to make sure the bottom one will block the shear line in it's resting position. On really deep cuts you may have to file down the T pin(s) so the stack height isn't high enough to prevent a blank from entering the lock.

The effect this has is basically a spooled pin that doesn't give enough counter-rotation to pick past it without the other pins falling back down. It's quite the nasty little set up.

[femurat]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=43368
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48900

these are just a few tries I have memory of

cheers

[Evan]

@shortlineflyer:

FarmerFreak and femurat have posted good info about your idea...

Expanding on FramerFreak's answer:

You should obtain and play around with Kaba-Ilco's Bump Haltâ„¢ drivers which use a different size and tension spring than the other chambers in the cylinder...
< External link to: Kaba-Ilco website section on Bump Haltâ„¢ Bump Resistant Cylinders >

Expanding on femurat's reply:

In one of the threads he referenced there was a really cool set of how-to pictures on making homemade security pins which was posted by Raymond on Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:27 pm in the Where can you buy anti-pick spool pins? thread... Raymond really did a good job of explaining how to make your own DIY style security pins...

Now for my thoughts:

There is a nice comparison/reference/description of some of the types of security pins available out there on this page: < External link to: Security Pin - Lockwiki > which will break down what the various type are and show some good pictures of them...

I think that the most evil security driver pins ever made (so far) have been the "double mushroom spooled pins" used in every chamber of the 7-pin VingCard cylinders used in Marine locks on ships and for key override cylinders in Hotel card access locks... Picture linked by scorche in this thread: Vingcard mortise cylinder
or use this link direct to the picture: < External link to: DSC_1789.JPG >

Another sort of homemade security enhancement you might consider would involve using a tap and die set... Lab Pins hosts a .pdf file of a 1983 Keynotes article written by Gerry Finch about serrated pins which should explain the general idea and how to go about executing it...

< External link to: serrated_pins_article_1983.pdf will open a download box to open file >

I think that this idea is really evil and in addition to making such cylinders MUCH harder to pick would also serve to frustrate attempts at impressioning a key as well... You tap the pin chambers in the plug and shell and could use the dies to cut threads on the pins...

In all honesty you would need to use a combination of security pins and methods to make a lock truly harder to conquer by an experienced picker... Using all spools or all serrated pins can be dealt with by someone with experience once they determine what they are up against while making their picking attempt...

Good luck with your pursuit of making your own security pins DIY...

~~ Evan

[FarmerFreak]

Evan, you're absolutely right, I do need to get myself some of those bump halt pins (and springs). I haven't gone out of the way to get them and subsequently haven't had the chance to play with them.

However there is one important thing about stacking the T pins that I didn't mention. The reason why it works so well, as apposed to how Schlage uses them. When the T drivers are stacked, the T pin that crosses the shear line doesn't have a spring wrapped around it holding the pin straight and centered in the chamber. Without that spring holding it centered, it is allowed to move over and allow the cylinder to turn as if it were more like a spooled pin instead of something more akin to deep serrations...

Then when trying to pick it out of the false setting, it suddenly becomes much different than a spooled pin. On a regular spool pin the top of the pin is held centered in the chamber, giving the bottom half of the pin something to straighten out to while applying upwards pressure. On a T driver without the spring wrapped around it, the pin is off to the side of the chamber at the top, and the driver pin above it helps push it to the side. When a picker try to pick it past the false set, the picker will almost always have to manually turn the lock back. And because the pin doesn't want to just straighten and center itself. The other already centered pins will drop back down in the process.

With Schlages setup, the spring helps to hold the pin centered in the chambers. Making it much easier to pick past them compared to when the spring isn't there. Ilco's bump halt probably suffers the same problem, that's not to say it would be easy to pick...

Without playing with them first hand, a lot of that may seem weird. I may have to draw up some pictures explaining it better. ...Just not tonight.

[Evan]

However there is one important thing about stacking the T pins that I didn't mention. The reason why it works so well, as apposed to how Schlage uses them. When the T drivers are stacked, the T pin that crosses the shear line doesn't have a spring wrapped around it holding the pin straight and centered in the chamber. Without that spring holding it centered, it is allowed to move over and allow the cylinder to turn as if it were more like a spooled pin instead of something more akin to deep serrations...

So the stacked Schlage T pins act like "drunken spools" because they don't right themselves like the normal spools which like you mentioned have full diameter end "caps"...

Interesting...

That would add some excitement..,

Strange combinations of a variety of security pins is still in my opinion the way to create a more difficult to pick lock cylinder...

~~ Evan

[FarmerFreak]

"drunken spools"

Very nice. I think they have a new name now!!

[femurat]

Now I get what you mean FarmerFreak, brilliant idea! I want to try this drunken spool. Let me see what happens if I file down a couple of drivers...

Evan, your replies are structured and clear. I like the way you reference links.

Cheers

[FarmerFreak]

I picked up some bump halt pins to play with. Picking them is definitely hard to do. It has very much the same effect as the stacked T pins (drunken spools). My only gripe with them is the stronger spring, I know it's there to prevent bumping. But for every bump halt pin you put into the lock it gets that much harder to insert/retract the key. When I feel like playing with drunken spools (which isn't often, they scare me), I like to put them in every chamber...

[chriswingate]

Yeah you put stacked T pins and serrated everything pins in the Sargent that I have from Kokomolock...that lock is a beast. Impossible so far.

[FarmerFreak]

Chris, I know you asked me about that lock and any possible hints/tricks. If it really is the Sargent cylinder I'm thinking it is. All the pin chambers should look something like this.



Because of the design of the T pins you can have a solid stop and prevent any possible overlifting. That's why there is a master pin above the spring. The key pin in every chamber is a same small size pin. But since you can't overlift any of the pin stacks past a 1 depth, it's not an issue. The reason I did that was to give you a sort of disconnected feeling. It makes it hard to tell if the pins are under-set or over-set.

As far as tips and tricks go for that lock. Try to pick some of the serrated T pins to the serrations (don't try to fully set them at first, I know that's not what I said earlier, but I had forgotten that they were serrated). Once you have them mostly set to the serrations, then work them like regular serrated pins and try not to over-set them. That's how I remember picking it before sending it to Tooly and Kokomo.

I know I didn't tell Toolymcgee any of this. He doesn't want any help, he usually doesn't even want to know what I've done to the locks...

[chriswingate]

Well Tooly is one of those freak pickers just like you lol. Ok to verify whether the Sargent is like that, I popped out the 6th chamber and that is the set up. Thanks for the tips, it will be a great day when I get that open.

[dls]

how about a hollow glass pin filled with superglue it could be hourglass shaped like a spool and when you spin the plug a bit it would glue it solid. another idea i had was to fit a telliscopic pin with the spring inside and some sort of barb activated by bumping or overlifting causing the pin to lock in the fully down position it would probably be easy enough to force it back up but it would just jam up the plug the top pin could also be made of two pins one taperd and fitted into the other bumping would force the taperd one into the hollow one spreading it like a rawlbolt.

[dls]

if the top pins where made of soft plastic with a small hardened wire in the center when the the plug was forced under tension the plastic would deform slightly jamming the pin between the plug and body the hard pin would prevent it from shearing in half or being forced. the plastic outer part could be any shape.
as you may have noticed many of my ideas are designed to prevent the pins from being reset or some type of self destruct mechanisim within the lock which would probably result in destructive entry after a pick bypass or bump attack, the reason for this is that i have worked in the safe and vault end of the trade for 20 years or so and with almost all good quality safes and locks there are relockers or other devices designed to frustrate picking and destructive entry the idea is to add a time penalty to unauthorised or prevent it altogether check out the chubb detector lock. another example would be electronic combos which usualy have an enforced time delay period after 3 or so incorect codes.
this is something i think is lacking from so called high security locks you can pick or bump away as many timed as you want without any penalty, if you had to wait 5 mins between attempts on a lock and where under time pressure eg. robbing a bank etc would you bother

[vov35]

I like the soft plastic idea, everything else is questionable. For example, the line between overlifting and normal key insertion is quite fine.
As for glass pins, if you break glass, you're picking wrong.