pin spacing

[dls]

if the manufacturer was to alter the pin spacing randomly or have about 10 different spacing patterns used randomly then bumping would be much more difficult if not impossible altogether it would also increase the possible key differs as the same depths could be used on different spacings but the keys would not be interchangeable

[FarmerFreak]

The first thing that came to mind when reading this is Medeco Biaxial. They use fore and aft cuts. If they had just made the pins interchangeable with the Medeco classic pins...

Random spacing would put some restrictions on bumping. unfortunately it wouldn't hamper any other form of attack, like impressioning or picking. It's still an idea to keep in mind as another option.

[dls]

impressioning would be difficult enough if you didnt know the spacing for a beginner or less experienced and made assumptions based on some of the other marks and what you already knew of other locks. have you ever driven the same road every day and got lost during a diversion. the lock would have to have no obvious branding and a generic type profile to limit identification

[femurat]

Hi dls, as you may know, the first rule in impressioning is to file only if you see a mark. So I guess that knowing the spacing is not relevant. On a similar note, since you should file away just the mark, knowing the depth is not relevant too. But skilled people are more likely to skip these rules to speed up the job, so paradoxically an expert impressioner is more subject to fail with such a lock.

Cheers

[dls]

i agree that it would be no harder to impression however it may cause some confusion almost every lock in the world uses regular spacing bumping of course would be more difficult to achieve you would have to carry a large range of bump keys for one lock and added to another anti bump measure like my overlift relocker it would be a pain in the hole not to mention time consuming which defeats the purpose of bumping

[mh]

have to carry a large range of bump keys for one lock

Which BTW doesn't mean that all people would call it bump-proof - see Medeco locks and the claims that they of course can be bumped, if you have the "correct" bump key for them...

Cheers
mh

[dls]

in the security world the word proof should be taken to mean resistant,
imagine being asked to open a lock you know to have random pin spacing do you take out your picks and try to feel the spacing ( the difference could be +-0.5 mm) to best judge the right bump key or range of keys to use, it could still be down to 5 keys if you couldnt determine the exact spacing.
would you bother or would you pick it?
what if where aware of the antipick pin at the back would you snap it?
what if you knew that it had no hole in the center to weaken it and had a weakpoint for a failsafe.
my point is that everything you add to a lock makes it more difficult.it should not make it less difficult.
in locksport turning the plug seems to be all that matters in my job getting in fast and the lock changed quick is the priority so when designing a lock you have to look at the whole picture not just pick and bump proofing(resisting)

[vov35]

I'd get a pick gun or a nice snap pick and bump it anyway...

[dls]

No matter what we do to overcome opening of any sort there will always be people who will find a way around it all you can do is keep one step ahead. like antivirus on a pc only as good as its last update (if you dont have windows you cant get a windows virus)

[vov35]

like antivirus on a pc as good a virus

there, I fixed it...

anyway, I don't think this idea would accomplish too much against the impact method of opening. I think you should be running with your other design anyway.

[dls]

It took me a while to get that one,
Im running ubuntu linux since 5.04 and havnt looked back.
Security through obscurity is the way to go

[vov35]

It took me a while to get that one,
Im running ubuntu linux since 5.04 and havnt looked back.
Security through obscurity is the way to go

A determined attacker could get the necessary info for a break from the internet, but you just aren't the target. That said, I'm running ubuntu as well.

It's like saying warded locks and tamper resistant bolts are secure...

also one could just serrate the top of their bump key finely enough to cover all used positions, and use minimal movement bumping.

[dls]

The way i see it is that if someone was clever enough to make a bumpkey to handle random spacing and knew enough about the lock they would probably pick it or try.
Here is another problem for an attacker if the lock is opensource like the way software can be then manufacturers can build their own keyway profiles so if you wanted to carry bumpkeys for these locks then you would have to have one set for each profile.

I think what we need is a proper design spec of what the open source lock must achieve will it follow current forms and be compatible with older existing brands will it be a totaly new design including the lockcase eliminating all known form of attack and bypass .Will it be just the core design which can be adapted to suit others.