custom top pins

[mh]

some type of self destruct mechanisim within the lock

Maybe one of the reasons these mechanisms made it into safe locks and not "normal door locks" is that users of safe locks can be taught to use more care when operating them, so as to not causing false detections.
Maybe for "normal door locks", a kid trying the wrong key should not result in a lockout in many setups; but of course, in some high security installations, something like that might be acceptable.

I like the creativity flowing around here

Cheers
mh

[dls]

if you are picking wrong you are probably not supposed to be doing it in the first place the idea is not to allow you a second chance and the condition of the lock is secondary to protecting whats valuable to you.

[dls]

in my experience people who work in banks and the like dont give a f*** about what they do with safes and keys once they can go home at 5.30 the biggest problem is the more modern locks which are designed to fail if someone trys to punch them off the door through the keyhole they literally fall apart. the trick is to balance security with reliability more simplicity generally means more reliability and more complexity means less.

[shortlineflyer]

I was thinking about the plastic pin idea and thought there could be a problem with that idea, no offense. so if you are using the plastic pins with metal inserts the problem arises not only when you try to pick it but also afterwards. soft plastic deforms easily and while there is not much room in between the key way cylinder and the housing of the key way cylinder there would be enough room for the plastic to squeeze into that gap when tension is applied to the lock. After this happens destructive entry would be required to open the lock whether you have the key or not.

[dls]

We are discussing a high security lock here the fact that the lock jams is a high security feature not found in most locks.
We are not discussing a lock designed for locksport its for the real world where people pick bump and break locks.
In high security applications the lock staying locked is the primary objective, authorised opening after the fact is secondary once the door stays locked.
Correct me if im wrong here but destructive entry is a small price to pay when your kids are safe in bed.
As for the pin jamming with the wrong key inserted i dont think it would be a major problem as not all the pins would be plastic and the chances are that several other pins would be incorrectly set also preventing the plug from turning, a high security lock will have at least 6 pins and many differs.

[vov35]

Really, with use, your plastic pins will wear a lot harder than metal, and then your key will become dysfunctional when they've worn far enough...

[dls]

The top pins only see direct pressure from the bottom one in the vertical plane ie up and down the bottom pins would be conventional brass to take the wear of the key in both planes.
The pin would have a metal insert as i said so it could have a metal cap on the bottom where it interfaces with the bottom pin.
Something else i was thinking about was the wear issue, in any pin or wafer lock its the cuts furthest from the bow of the key and the pins nearest the outside of the core that wear most because every cut of the key has to pass the first pin and the first cut of the key has to pass all the pins so they will see all the wear. if you put the plastic pin in the middle you will probably get the best results.
If a lock is sloppy enough that its security features will kick in after only 2 years or so then i wont be putting it on my door anyway so i wont have to worry

[vov35]

its the cuts furthest from the bow of the key and the pins nearest the outside of the core that wear most

if you put the plastic pin in the middle you will probably get the best results.

I missed your reasoning there?

[dls]

Put simply if you dont want false setting of the security features self destructive or otherwise you wont want wear to cause it, not all pins wear at the same rate longer stacks will have to be lifted less to work but will possibly have to be lifted higher to pass earlier cuts on the key this will make them press harder on the key as the compression on the spring increases as it is pressed further into the chamber increasing wear. the first cut on the key has to pass all the pins to get to the last one and so on for the rest. what im trying to say is that more sensitive anti pick measures need to be placed where they will be less affected by wear

[vov35]

Which is the rear of the plug, not the center.

[Evan]

if you are picking wrong you are probably not supposed to be doing it in the first place the idea is not to allow you a second chance and the condition of the lock is secondary to protecting whats valuable to you.

Incorrect...

Usually the priority in high security lock installations is the reliable function of the cylinder so the door can be accessed by authorized personnel when they need to without having to use destructive entry techniques...

Plastic anything inside the cylinder of a lock is just a bad idea in general because of how people thaw out frozen locks in areas where that is of concern...

~~ Evan

[dls]

In many of the applications i see every day where attacks have taken place on locks force has been used and destructive entry is all thats possible.
This idea wouldnt make the lock any less reliable and in most cases the cost of a new barrel and the requirement for destructive entry far outweighs the cost of finding someone siting at your desk with a shotgun waiting for you to open the safe i know several people through my job that this has happened to they wouldnt agree with you.

I cant tell you specific details but one eighty five year old woman was tied to a chair and beaten quite badly overnight and left for dead because some gang of scumbags managed to bypass some simple security, she would have been quite happy to go to bed that night and only have to worry about the cost of new locks i can tell you this is where i am coming from here high security costs money low costs way way more.

Anyway destructive entry only has to mean the barrel not the whole door is destroyed which is already the case.
As long as the end result is the same and the customer is not ripped off and happy at the end of the day whats the harm.

[Evan]

Anyway destructive entry only has to mean the barrel not the whole door is destroyed which is already the case.
As long as the end result is the same and the customer is not ripped off and happy at the end of the day whats the harm.

@dls:

That all depends on who is doing the destructive entry... If your lock with plastic parts on a commercial structure FUBAR's itself during an event where someone who shouldn't have entered has managed to enter anyway, then when the victims of the crime call for help the whole door will need to be replaced after emergency services forces it's way in when the keys in the lock box (if there is one) don't operate the lock...

I have seen situations where maintenance staff have destructively entered a lock that was broken and or sabotaged only they didn't know the exact drill points and took out the cylinder and/or parts in the lock case which required replacing the entire lock...

Saying that "only the barrel" will need to be replaced at the worst with destructive entry is either being very idealistic or terribly naive about how things usually go in the real world...

~~ Evan

P.S. I the situation you alluded to it sounds like the businesses who fell victim to those events would have been better served not by super high tech locks but by a decent commercial hard wired alarm system...

[dls]

Firstly we are talking about a lock with one single plastic pin in the middle so it would be more resistant to heatguns and the like. If someone trys to do a destructive entry its unlikely the single plastic pin is going to be the problem and we are discussing top pins here as a means to thwart picking and bumping not the usual destructive attacks.

Secondly if someone is truly serious about high security then maintenance staff should not be near the door in the first place there is no offence meant here to maintenance people here i mean they should know what they are doing if they fitted the lock in the first place they should be qualified to do so

AS we are discussing pinning and anti pick or bump pins to prevent these attacks then we are talking about minimal damage attacks here.

The business here had a hardwired alarm with a backup radio one too as well as a portable and multiple fixed panic alarms. it was a franchise type operation and the individual in question lived upstairs above the shop these guys got in just after lockup and stayed the night to wait for timelocks very nasty people

[vov35]

dls, I don't think you ever addressed:

Plastic anything inside the cylinder of a lock is just a bad idea in general because of how people thaw out frozen locks in areas where that is of concern...