Grandmasterkeying, with a question..

[yono]

hi guys Ive been ask to do a job of programming a 1000 lock cylinders under one grand masterkey with five master keys. after assigning the Gmk and the Mks, I am applying a one pin rotating constant in a three pins configuration in a change key. the cylinder is a five pins format. and all in one keyway. MY QUESTION IS...will the one pin rotating constant is quite safe enough, the security level is minimal. We been doing Medeco rekeys since, and the flexibility is no question. but with a conventional cylinder, i never done it in these figures. IS THERE anyone that can advise me on this? thanks a lot gentlemen. regards.

[Evan]

@yono:

Need to know a bit more about the locks in question here...

Your system consists of:

1 GMK
5 MK's
200 CK's per MK

Do I understand that correctly ?

Those specs are possible using a 5-pin cylinder with locks capable of single-step progression master keying systems...

That is slightly beyond the capacity of most 5-pin cylinders which use two-step progression master keying systems...

Then you have to factor in MACS losses and weed out other undesirable key bitting combinations...

~~ Evan

[yono]

thanks for a quick response Evan. thats right friend.. 1GMK and 5MKs, the owner want to break it down as 1 mk -- for 265 locks, 1mk---250 locks, 1mk--229locks, 1mk--135locks, 1mk--122locks. do you think evan that it can accomodate the 265 locks with less compromise on the decent security level? thanks again pal.

[Evan]

@yono:


Still need to know the lock manufacturer, type of cylinders (normal: rim, mortise or KIK vs. special/special function: IC, Brinks, Lockout, Elevator, etc.) and proposed bitting system you would be using to say either "yes, what you are proposing is possible" or "no, what you have proposed is beyond the capacity of the locks you want to use"...

Designing asymmetrical keying systems like the one you want to do means you have to divide your key to accommodate the largest number of change keys, i.e. the master group with the most keys in it, plus adding room for dealing with some minor expansion or re-keys as well because you don't want your system to be exhausted the day you install it...

Using the 1-in-3 Rotating Constant method to obtain the change keys is a cool way to reduce the number of pins required in the locks to operate within the keying system, fewer master pins means slightly better security in the cylinders... I have designed keying systems where a 6-pin cylinder is divided in half and two 1-in-3 Rotating Constant progressions are used, one to obtain the change keys and the second to obtain the master keys...

Now about your specific questions:

Assuming a typical 10 depth two-step progression system -

What you propose to do is just not possible on 5-pin cylinders...
Dividing the key using the normal math ( 4 ^ 5 ) = 1,024 possible keys:
Which would be 1 chamber used to obtain 4 MK and the remaining 4 chambers for 256 change keys under each MK...
Factoring in MACS losses, you would not be able create to the first two or three MK groups in the proposed system...
You would need 6-pin cylinders to use a lock which requires two-step progression to obtain the required system...
Or if you need to use 5-pin cylinders for whatever reason you would need to use a set of multiplex keyways...

Assuming a typical 6 depth single-step progression system -

What you propose would be possible on a 5-pin cylinder...
Dividing the key using the normal math ( 5 ^ 5 ) = 3,125 possible keys:
Which would be 1 chamber used to obtain 5 MK and the remaining 4 chambers for 625 change keys under each MK...
Factoring in MACS losses, you would still have plenty of change keys left for the MK groups in the proposed system...

Using the Rotating Constant method to progress change keys will effect the change key yield slightly and in the smaller 1-in-X type systems you end up with less keys available than you would otherwise get from using the Total Position Progression method, the true benefits of using RC are not realized until you get into the 2-in-X and 3-in-X patterns which have more progression patterns charted than the number of pin chambers being used to obtain the change keys... You would be using the 1-in-3 to slightly increase the security of the cylinders and reduce the number of pins required to create it...

The best advice I can offer without knowing more specific information is that the only way you could create the three-level grand master keying system you have described on 5-pin lock cylinders using only one keyway would be if the locks to be used in the system were able to use single-step progression and included no special cylinders like IC or special functions and had no selective keying at all...

~~ Evan

[vov35]

Doesn't it sound like he's using medeco IC's?

[Evan]

We been doing Medeco rekeys since, and the flexibility is no question. but with a conventional cylinder, i never done it in these figures. IS THERE anyone that can advise me on this? thanks a lot gentlemen. regards.

@vov35:

Based on the bold and italicized quote referenced above, I don't think the locks in question here are Medeco or IC... They are some sort of conventional cylinder and that could mean many things...

Hence I keep asking which lock manufacturer's cylinders are being proposed to create this grand master keying system...

~~ Evan

[yono]

Hi Evan, thanks a lot man i really stunned at the help i am getting from you. and sorry if i keep you guessing on some question you need to know, i dont intend it that way. the lock is simplex (all)double profile cylinders 5 pins type, i found out i can use the Cisa 07550-01-0 keying kit which is just perfect. bottom pins from 1 to 6 bittings. and master wafers 1 to 5. studying the plan i found out some ways to economize key assignments. like dining halls with eight doors, and raise the question, why should it be in 8 different CK when it is controled by 1 person? so i will ask for the bldg plan to study and eliminate unneccessary CK assignments, in that way i can apply a comprehensive masterkeying system. I appreciate all of your help gentlemen..but i will keep on bothering you again if i need help as this project onfold. especially you Evan..(if you wont mind)

This almost a blog already (sorry folks) but i think there is some lesson to take from this project. who knows you might encounter the same case. and need the same help. I salute you EVAN. regards

[Evan]

Hi Evan, thanks a lot man i really stunned at the help i am getting from you. and sorry if i keep you guessing on some question you need to know, i dont intend it that way. the lock is simplex (all)double profile cylinders 5 pins type, i found out i can use the Cisa 07550-01-0 keying kit which is just perfect. bottom pins from 1 to 6 bittings. and master wafers 1 to 5. studying the plan i found out some ways to economize key assignments. like dining halls with eight doors, and raise the question, why should it be in 8 different CK when it is controled by 1 person? so i will ask for the bldg plan to study and eliminate unneccessary CK assignments, in that way i can apply a comprehensive masterkeying system. I appreciate all of your help gentlemen..but i will keep on bothering you again if i need help as this project onfold. especially you Evan..(if you wont mind)

This almost a blog already (sorry folks) but i think there is some lesson to take from this project. who knows you might encounter the same case. and need the same help. I salute you EVAN. regards

@yono:

Thanks... It is not a problem...

Doing either a detailed premises survey in person or examining a current and accurate set of plans is necessary to do when designing a keying system unless you have a detailed set of key system records and are supplying a replacement system on a new keyway/lock cylinder from the ones you are retiring from service...

Some of the most common issues I have heard of popping up are:

-- cross keying

Does anyone who has a certain key need to use that same key to open other doors ?

Example: The outer door to a suite of offices should be keyed to operate with all of the keys to the individual offices inside the suite...

-- doors with cylinders on both sides

Do any doors have cylinders on both sides which might need to be keyed differently on each side of the door ?

Example: A public restroom door in a building is often keyed so that the change keys operate only the exterior cylinder and either the master key only or a totally different change key operates the interior cylinder which can unlock the outer trim knob or lever for access without needing a key...

-- groups of rooms of a certain type of use

Are there any rooms with an identical use which are repeated in several places in the building/facility ?

Example: janitorial closets, electrical closets, HVAC mechanical rooms, telephone closets, cable/satellite television closets, elevator machine rooms, IT wiring closets, CCTV surveillance system closets, plumbing chase access doors, roof access doors, fire alarm closets, etc. which could be keyed alike in groups by use rather than having an individual change key for each closet location...

Feel free to ask any other questions you might have yono...

~~ Evan

[yono]

Thank a lot Evan for your support, It come to my mind that since we are covering almost 10,000 doors in Medeco here. why not apply the similar principle to this project, where as.. .
1.all electrical,mechanical,telephones would be in maint. key under GMK
2.toilets, custodial stores..in one key under GMK
3.all departments --with department's key under GMK and so on.
in this manner saving a lot of code for expansion space in the future. i think this is one good solution would you think? all dbl.prof.cylinders they want to be keyed on code assigned both side. regards.

[Evan]

Thank a lot Evan for your support, It come to my mind that since we are covering almost 10,000 doors in Medeco here. why not apply the similar principle to this project, where as.. .
1.all electrical,mechanical,telephones would be in maint. key under GMK
2.toilets, custodial stores..in one key under GMK
3.all departments --with department's key under GMK and so on.
in this manner saving a lot of code for expansion space in the future. i think this is one good solution would you think? all dbl.prof.cylinders they want to be keyed on code assigned both side. regards.

@yono:

The theory behind having each different type of room on a separate change key is that say you have an outside service company come in to do some work on one type of utility, say electricians -- they don't need a key which will open every service door in the facility, only the electrical rooms and if they need access to a set of suites or some other space they can ask for those areas to be opened by maintenance or security while that work needs to be done, yet the electrical rooms in which they are working and may be going and and out of won't be left wide open because they have they key to those doors...

You would establish the lower level keys rather than loaning out the GMK to the temporary workers and technicians...

This can be anything from:

- one separate change key under the GMK only like you have suggested

- normal change keys in one of the system master key groups which is used exclusively for building service areas

- adding a top level selective master key like ENG to the system and you can then decide how to key such spaces so that they are operable by:

• the top master key and ENG only
  example: ( XENG operated by: ENG, GMK )
• making change keys under the ENG selective master key
  example: ( ENG-1, ENG-2, ENG-3, etc... )
• assigning the same constant change key bitting combination to each of those specific spaces within each master key group (when master keys are assigned by floor or area/section of the building) allowing you to create special function keys using those constant change key cuts and the remaining master key level cuts from the ENG key to create a special function depth master key for each of the special spaces in the building
  example:

  Code: Select all

  Sample: Three Level Master Keying System using the Total Position Progression method and two-step progression between different bittings with an ENG selective master key and special function depth master keys planned in...

GMK A 347230
ENG   341230

A-1  565452  A-5  565472     ENG-1  721452  ENG-5  721472     |     SKD-1  169452  SKD-5  169472
A-2  565454  A-6  565474     ENG-2  721454  ENG-6  721474     |     SKD-2  169454  SKD-6  169474
A-3  565456  A-7  565476     ENG-3  721456  ENG-7  721476     |     SKD-3  169456  SKD-7  169476
A-4  565458  A-8  565478     ENG-4  721458  ENG-8  721478     |     SKD-4  169458  SKD-8  169478


MK AA 767230                   MK AB 927230                   MK AC 587230                   MK AD 107230

AA-1  767452  AA-9   767492    AB-1  927452  AB-9   927492    AC-1  587452  AC-9   587492    AD-1  107452  AD-9   107492
AA-2  767454  AA-10  767494    AB-2  927454  AB-10  927494    AC-2  587454  AC-10  587494    AD-2  107454  AD-10  107494
AA-3  767456  AA-11  767496    AB-3  927456  AB-11  927496    AC-3  587456  AC-11  587496    AD-3  107456  AD-11  107496
AA-4  767458  AA-12  767498    AB-4  927458  AB-12  927498    AC-4  587458  AC-12  587498    AD-4  107458  AD-12  107498
AA-5  767472  AA-13  767412    AB-5  927472  AB-13  927412    AC-5  587472  AC-13  587412    AD-5  107472  AD-13  107412
AA-6  767474  AA-14  767414    AB-6  927474  AB-14  927414    AC-6  587474  AC-14  587414    AD-6  107474  AD-14  107414
AA-7  767476  AA-15  767416    AB-7  927476  AB-15  927416    AC-7  587476  AC-15  587416    AD-7  107476  AD-15  107416
AA-8  767478  AA-16  767418    AB-8  927478  AB-16  927418    AC-8  587478  AC-16  587418    AD-8  107478  AD-16  107418



Special key  341452  Stairwell doors all levels
Special key  341454  Electrical rooms all levels
Special key  341456  HVAC rooms all levels
Special key  341458  Telephone rooms all levels
Special key  341472  IT closets all levels
Special key  341474  Men's restrooms all levels
Special key  341476  Women's restrooms all levels
Special key  341478  Janitorial closets all levels

  
  
  Description: Assume a three floor office building. The following rooms exist on each level: stairwell door, electrical room, HVAC mechanical room, telephone room, IT wiring closet, common men's restroom, common women's restroom, janitorial closet, storage room.
  
  The storage rooms are specially keyed to a direct change key under the GMK or are SKD'd.
  
  So assigning each special type of room to the change keys in the following order:
  
  -- Stairwell doors: 1st change key under each master
  So the stairwell door on the 1st floor is AA-1, on the 2nd floor AB-1, on the 3rd floor AC-1 and for the basement AD-1
  
  -- Electrical rooms: 2nd change key under each master
  So the electrical room on the 1st floor is AA-2, on the 2nd floor AB-2, on the 3rd floor AC-2 and for the main switch gear room in the basement AD-2
  
  -- HVAC room: 3rd change key under each master
  So the HVAC room on the 1st floor is AA-3, on the 2nd floor AB-3, on the 3rd floor AC-3 and for the central plant room in the basement AD-3
  
  -- Telephone room: 4th change key under each master
  So the telephone room on the 1st floor is AA-4, on the 2nd floor AB-4, on the 3rd floor AC-4 and for the main demarcation telephone room in the basement AD-4
  
  -- IT closet: 5th change key under each master
  So the IT closet on the 1st floor is AA-5, on the 2nd floor AB-5, on the 3rd floor AC-5 and for the basement AD-5
  
  -- Men's restroom: 6th change key under each master
  So the men's restroom on the 1st floor is AA-6, on the 2nd floor AB-6, on the 3rd floor AC-6 and for the basement AD-6
  
  -- Women's restroom: 7th change key under each master
  So the women's restroom on the 1st floor is AA-7, on the 2nd floor AB-7, on the 3rd floor AC-7 and for the basement AD-7
  
  -- Janitorial closet: 8th change key under each master
  So the janitorial closet on the 1st floor is AA-8, on the 2nd floor AB-8, on the 3rd floor AC-8 and for the basement AD-8
  
  To make the Special keys work each individual lock would have to be operated by the ENG key...
  example: Stairwell door on 1st floor ( XAA-1 operated by: AA-1, AA, A, ENG )

This idea is more useful in larger buildings and buildings with many more than three floors...
Hope that makes sense, if not I can answer any questions you might have...

~~ Evan

[yono]

Evan thanks again..This is how I established my GMK as per owner requirements, Please do comment if I make some Flaw ..

GMK 12345 (cuts and chamber assignments are sample only)
Changing the #2 & 5 chamber on the GMK to get a required no. of MK (here I need 8MK’s)
Using the simple progression to extract the required MK’s (the lock has 6 as its deepest)
#5
#2 1 3 6
2 f a d
4 b h i
5 e g c

From there I can get 9 MKs cut under GMK
a.12343, b.14341, c. 15346, d. 12346, e. 15341, f. 12341, g. 15343, h. 14343, i. 14346
and since as required to get at least 18 sub masters keys under each of these master key, another progression is required. To get the number of required SMKs
#3&4
#1 21 24 26 33 35 41 45
1
3
5
In which in this progression I can extract 21 SubMKs under 1 MK

And another requirement to have at least 50 CKs under each subMK, so another progression is required under to extract CKs under that subMK.
#3&5
#1 11 13 15 23 24 25 Etc>
1
3
5
In which I can extract 57 CKs under assigned subMK.

The requirements is less demanding here than in the other countries like the west. The maintenance is an “in house Dept.” so your suggestions are very applicable here Evan.
Any outside contractor works are to be coordinated with the eng’g dept. and they ae not allowed to get hold of the key, but just to allow access on a certain area required by the eng’g. dept. I think this is a feasible solution would you think?

[Evan]

@yono:

I see several problems, I will elaborate below...

Evan thanks again..This is how I established my GMK as per owner requirements, Please do comment if I make some Flaw ..

GMK 12345 (cuts and chamber assignments are sample only)
Changing the #2 & 5 chamber on the GMK to get a required no. of MK (here I need 8MK’s)
Using the simple progression to extract the required MK’s (the lock has 6 as its deepest)
#5
#2 1 3 6
2 f a d
4 b h i
5 e g c

From there I can get 9 MKs cut under GMK
a.12343, b.14341, c. 15346, d. 12346, e. 15341, f. 12341, g. 15343, h. 14343, i. 14346

Code: Select all

Unused depths chamber #2: 1, 3, 6
Unused depths chamber #5: 2, 4

1 2 3 4 5
               GMK       12345

- 2 - - 3      MK A      12343
- 4 - - 1      MK B      14341
- 5 - - 6      MK C      15346
- 2 - - 6      MK D      12346
- 5 - - 1      MK E      15341
- 2 - - 1      MK F      12341
- 5 - - 3      MK G      15343
- 4 - - 3      MK H      14343
- 4 - - 6      MK I      14346


I am with you so far, you matrix notation of how to get the 9 MK level keys is represented above in long form... Although you are using TMK bittings in the lower level master keys, you shouldn't be doing that, in order to establish the hierarchy of the system you would be needing to establish bittings for each level of master key which become common cuts on the keys that are within it's group...

and since as required to get at least 18 sub masters keys under each of these master key, another progression is required. To get the number of required SMKs
#3&4
#1 21 24 26 33 35 41 45
1
3
5
In which in this progression I can extract 21 SubMKs under 1 MK

Code: Select all

Unused depths chamber #1: 2, 4, 6
Unused depths chamber #3: 1, 3, 5
Unused depths chamber #4: 2

1 2 3 4 5

1 - 2 1 -   SMK #1
1 - 2 4 -   SMK #2
1 - 2 6 -   SMK #3
1 - 3 3 -   SMK #4
1 - 3 5 -   SMK #5
1 - 4 1 -   SMK #6
1 - 4 5 -   SMK #7
3 - 2 1 -   SMK #8
3 - 2 4 -   SMK #9
3 - 2 6 -   SMK #10
3 - 3 3 -   SMK #11
3 - 3 5 -   SMK #12
3 - 4 1 -   SMK #13
3 - 4 5 -   SMK #14
5 - 2 1 -   SMK #15
5 - 2 4 -   SMK #16
5 - 2 6 -   SMK #17
5 - 3 3 -   SMK #18
5 - 3 5 -   SMK #19
5 - 4 1 -   SMK #20
5 - 4 5 -   SMK #21


I am still with you here to this point... Agreed that it is possible to progress this number of keys, although you are using TMK cuts in several positions which doesn't seem right... Did you write this system yourself or is it the product of computer software ? The cuts of the TMK should not be in the lower level master keys in chamber positions being progressed to establish that level of key in the system...

And another requirement to have at least 50 CKs under each subMK, so another progression is required under to extract CKs under that subMK.
#3&5
#1 11 13 15 23 24 25 Etc>
1
3
5
In which I can extract 57 CKs under assigned subMK.

Code: Select all

1 2 3 4 5

1 - 1 - 1   CK #1
1 - 1 - 3   CK #2
1 - 1 - 5   CK #3
1 - 2 - 3   CK #4
1 - 2 - 4   CK #5
1 - 2 - 5   CK #6
3 - 1 - 1   CK #7
3 - 1 - 3   CK #8
3 - 1 - 5   CK #9
3 - 2 - 3   CK #10
3 - 2 - 4   CK #11
3 - 2 - 5   CK #12
5 - 1 - 1   CK #13
5 - 1 - 3   CK #14
5 - 1 - 5   CK #15
5 - 2 - 3   CK #16
5 - 2 - 4   CK #17
5 - 2 - 5   CK #18


This is where you lost me...

First, you are using the #2 depth in the 3rd chamber which you already used to progress the sub-master level of keys... That doesn't seem correct to me... You can not progress the same depth in the same chamber for more than one level of keying...

Second you are using the #5 depth in the 5th chamber which is on the TMK and shouldn't be reused anywhere else in the system...

Where did you come up with the idea to use the 1st, 3rd and 5th chambers like this to progress the change keys ?

You have exhausted all of the key except for 3 bitting depths in the 1st chamber, you would not be able to use any other depths in any other chamber without double pinning cylinders which would create all kinds of unintended key interchange in the system...

What you started out with was possible... Remember:

thanks for a quick response Evan. thats right friend.. 1GMK and 5MKs, the owner want to break it down as 1 mk -- for 265 locks, 1mk---250 locks, 1mk--229locks, 1mk--135locks, 1mk--122locks. do you think evan that it can accomodate the 265 locks with less compromise on the decent security level? thanks again pal.

You have turned that into something which is NO LONGER POSSIBLE using 5-pin locks mathematically...

1 TMK x 9 "MK" x 21 "SMK" x 50 change keys = 9,450

When the keyspace capacity of a six depth single step progression keying system is ( 5 ^ 5 ) = 3,125 lower level keys + 1 TMK

In general dividing a chamber by using it to progress both master key level and change key level bittings in a keying system is frowned upon because it requires double-pinning (using more than one master pin in that chamber) just to make the intended keys operate without considering any cross-keying that might also be factored in... You have divided in every chamber which has resulted in most of the bittings being unusable without double-pinning in EVERY chamber to make them work...

If you have a system chart, I am curious to see it...

The requirements is less demanding here than in the other countries like the west. The maintenance is an “in house Dept.” so your suggestions are very applicable here Evan.
Any outside contractor works are to be coordinated with the eng’g dept. and they ae not allowed to get hold of the key, but just to allow access on a certain area required by the eng’g. dept. I think this is a feasible solution would you think?

You are welcome for the suggestions, they are just several issues I have come across where a lower level of key than a master was required to accomplish the access requirements, the locksmith/author Billy B. Edwards, Jr. CML calls this type of key a "depth master key"...

I must admit that I am scratching my head somewhat on how you have created a system which exceeds the capacity of the cylinders you are using by three times what is possible...

Please let me know if I have interpreted what you were describing in your most recent posting...

~~ Evan

[yono]

thanks Evan, that is what i want to hear, the progression gone haywire in the third level. i've got to study these far more deeper and accurate, basing on your guides. before i waste more of your time with such an indiscriminate building of unworkable prog.chart. regards pal..but dont sign me out yet.. you're the expert i'm the noob, i gotta like to learn from you. while it is free of charge..

[Evan]

thanks Evan, that is what i want to hear, the progression gone haywire in the third level. i've got to study these far more deeper and accurate, basing on your guides. before i waste more of your time with such an indiscriminate building of unworkable prog.chart. regards pal..but dont sign me out yet.. you're the expert i'm the noob, i gotta like to learn from you. while it is free of charge..

@yono:

It is not that the progression has gone haywire at the 3rd level, it is that you have run out of chambers to progress without causing key interchange... To accomplish the "new" system specs you would need at minimum two more chambers to progress the change key level bittings from...

Is there a particular reason that you are skipping steps when you are progressing the master and sub-master level keys ? I am not familiar with the specs for Cisa locks but if they are single step-progression you don't need to be skipping steps like that...

~~ Evan

[yono]

Hi Evan..its not skipping, its a shortcoming on my experience in grandmasterkeying. the medeco system introduced here are a product of the early people, and we just inherited it. with this grandmasterkeying on my own..on these conventional cylinders, i found my ignorrace. and i will learn from it.regards.