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plug spinner protection

TOSL Project. A community project to "build a better mousetrap".

plug spinner protection

Postby dls » 26 Mar 2011 17:44

Yet another idea, lets say you develop a near perfect lock that takes a considerable time to pick open and mount it on a door to a lockcase which requires it to be turned through several revolutions to operate.
Use a plug spinner you say, well what if the plug contained a small sidebar which was held in by tension springs, as the plug spins normally with the key the springs keep the side bar in place. But when it rotates at a speed fast enough for the plug to pass the sheer the sidebar pops out and locks the plug before it passes the sheer point the only way to unset this is to return the plug to the locked position and start again.
i wonder if this would be any use
When picking starts to hurt take your finger out
dls
 
Posts: 283
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 16:57
Location: ireland

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby vov35 » 26 Mar 2011 21:52

Here's how I'd approach the problem: isolate the plug face from the rest of the plug, and have a weaker spring connecting them. That way you limit the amount of torque that can be applied by a spinner to the plug.
The BiLock isn't the first bump proof pin tumbler because it isn't a pin tumbler.
And it's called a shear line, not a "sheerline".
vov35
 
Posts: 229
Joined: 29 Sep 2010 15:13

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby vov35 » 26 Mar 2011 21:53

In fact, you could eddy current brake the plug by mounting a strong magnet anywhere, which would impede fast rotation.
The BiLock isn't the first bump proof pin tumbler because it isn't a pin tumbler.
And it's called a shear line, not a "sheerline".
vov35
 
Posts: 229
Joined: 29 Sep 2010 15:13

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby dls » 27 Mar 2011 3:21

Yes you could try the magnet but i think the speed would be a little slow because the circumfrence is so small
The normal type of application is to brake a fishing reel and the speeds would be considerably higher there.
The magnets would also allow you to keep rotating the plug in the opening direction the sidebar would not you would have to re lock it to unset it.
When picking starts to hurt take your finger out
dls
 
Posts: 283
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 16:57
Location: ireland

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby Raymond » 27 Mar 2011 23:32

Interesting idea. It's probably not practical to be made commercially but for our purposes it would make the lock a nasty picker frustrator.

How about a free floating pin held into the plug by a small magnet in the plug that flies loose with the centripetel force of the plug spinner. It would fly outward into a hole and stop the spin right near the shear line. The lock would then reset and require fresh picking. Just don't mount your lock upside down or it could be permanently locked.
Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool. Wisdom is not just in determining how to do something, but also includes determining whether it should be done at all.
Raymond
 
Posts: 1357
Joined: 18 Jan 2004 23:34
Location: Far West Texas

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby vov35 » 28 Mar 2011 14:06

how about connecting the face of the plug to the rest of it with a magnet, so excess force pulls them apart, deterring plug spinners, but not legitimate operation.
The BiLock isn't the first bump proof pin tumbler because it isn't a pin tumbler.
And it's called a shear line, not a "sheerline".
vov35
 
Posts: 229
Joined: 29 Sep 2010 15:13

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby dls » 28 Mar 2011 15:24

The reason i suggested the spinstopper be held in place by a tension spring is to make sure it can be positioned at any angle, by a tension spring i mean one that pulls it into the plug in normal use this could be a simple ring like a light circlip . A magnet was something i did consider to hold the stopper in but i thought that the fact that it could become rusted over time and the two magnetic elements would become fused together as they are iron based most likely.
When picking starts to hurt take your finger out
dls
 
Posts: 283
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 16:57
Location: ireland

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby Doctor Hexagon » 28 Mar 2011 15:59

Neodymium magnets have a very strong magnetic attraction, and when plated with other metals that resist tarnishing and oxidization, will last a very long time. As long as the magnet isn't subjected to repeated or intense impact or stress. Neodymium itself will tarnish when exposed to air, and is brittle (compared to other elements like iron and iron alloys), so it can fracture or shatter if struck with enough force. That being said, it -could- work if used properly.

However if you're relying on centrifugal force to extend a sort of "plug stopper" simply using pins attached to springs would be much more practical, and the lack of magnetic properties would likely keep it from interfering with any electronic components that could theoretically be incorporated in the key and lock itself. The pins or bar used in this way could be designed to trap the plug at a specific point, such as back at the shearline, forcing the pin stacks to reset, or there could be multiple stopping points in the cylinder that will catch the plug and halt it thereby forcing the attacker to eventually reset the lock anyway.

In either case, if the picker is aware of the trap, they would still be able to defeat the centrifugal force needed to extend the stopper pins by not attempting to spin the plug until it's only a small distance from the pin stacks. The trap wouldn't engage until the pins had already passed the shearline so it wouldn't completely diffuse the use of a plug spinner, but could add another layer of security and therefore another obstacle that delays NDE attacks.

Just some of my thoughts on the matter :)
Doctor Hexagon
 
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Location: USA, Virginia

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby dls » 28 Mar 2011 16:11

Well i am no expert on magnets so thanks for that i am thinking that there could be several serations in the core for the stopper to catch and they would act like a rachet once set i think they could be sorted so they stay predded out until the plug is returned to the locked position, i dont mean that they will be permenantly deployed only that when spinning takes place a kind of overcenter action in the spring would force it out until rearmed at the start point.
When picking starts to hurt take your finger out
dls
 
Posts: 283
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 16:57
Location: ireland

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby Poff » 29 Mar 2011 10:50

If one or more of the top pin holes had a gradual groove on the "backwards" side, those pin/s may have time to partially reset before the cylinder rotated past the shear line partially setting the pin/s. Once the cylinder stopped, some or all of the pins would probably reset.
Poff
 
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Location: San Diego, CA

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby dls » 29 Mar 2011 13:12

Thats an idea but there is a possibility that the pin would drop into the groove in normal use as for my idea the the grove in the core would have to be smaller than the pin diameter so as to avoid this happening also.
When picking starts to hurt take your finger out
dls
 
Posts: 283
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 16:57
Location: ireland

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby Poff » 29 Mar 2011 16:05

dls wrote:That's an idea but there is a possibility that the pin would drop into the groove in normal use as for my idea the the grove in the core would have to be smaller than the pin diameter so as to avoid this happening also.


You're right, when you put the key in and turned, it would be fine locking the lock but when you returned to the shear line that top pin would drop down and hit the bottom pin.
Poff
 
Posts: 66
Joined: 23 Oct 2010 10:56
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby dls » 29 Mar 2011 17:27

It looks like this idea could be made to work to me but it would be useless on a lock without double or triple throw boltwork unless you designed the lock that it would do a full turn before picking up th cam or tailbar. :idea:
When picking starts to hurt take your finger out
dls
 
Posts: 283
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 16:57
Location: ireland

Re: plug spinner protection

Postby yono » 23 Apr 2011 3:17

This design of mine is still in progress.. if i install another trigger pin on the other side, it seems that i covered against lockpicking, bumpkeying, and plugspinning. i did successfully done that on one side in a mortise lock cylinder. (i wish i can acquire a machine that can complete my project.)

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn11 ... /yono2.jpg
hi everyone, im glad to be a member of this very interesting community, our community of locksmiths. i hope i could help others, within my ability, and hope you can help me too, God bless us all fellow locksmiths.
yono
 
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Re: plug spinner protection

Postby dls » 23 Apr 2011 13:34

Your safety pin idea is exactly the same as my idea for a relocker on the back pin which would be activated by overlifting or bumping but i dont think it would defeat plug spinning because it would see the plug the same way as the top pins in my opinion the safety pin needs to be in the plug and locking into a groove in the body.
the reason for a grove is to give it time to set. this groove could be shallow and have some pin holes in it too to lock it up propperly
When picking starts to hurt take your finger out
dls
 
Posts: 283
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 16:57
Location: ireland

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