Expert needed.

[Squelchtone]

The only thing that "jiggler" (and I don't believe it is one) would do is open the door (assuming the key fit in the lock, which it normally wouldn't) and turn the ignition (again, assuming that it could and would fit in the lock) but not start the vehicle. If that key is the major piece of evidence in the theft of a Ford truck, your prosecution has no case.

Well the prosecution had enough, with the Officer's testimony and his "expertise" in keys to convict the guy in front of a jury. He was sentenced to 11 1/4 years and has been locked up on it for almost 7 to date.

Very flattered you stopped by an internet forum for hobbyists, because I do hope you don't think this is a cabal of professional car thieves here, but wouldn't the normal path for someone in your line of work would be to get the testimony of a sworn expert, perhaps someone like a local locksmith who has been in business locally for at least 25 years and is in good standing with the better business bureau, ALOA, and someone who carries factory certifications on making keys, or mending vehicle cylinders?

Or if not a locksmith, then the general manager or service manager of a local Ford of Chrysler dealership who could attest that the key is not special and is only meant to match the wafers of a specific lock?

If the key was found on your client's person, did no one bother to ask him to which vehicle the key belonged to so that they could have walked up to the car and tried the key? If they key indeed worked, one could they take the car to the dealership and ask the dealership to make a key using the VIN only and then comparing the keys one would note the cuts are identical. This would vindicate your client.

Anyway thanks for the entertaining trip down what if lane, but I'm also skeptical as to why you're here and what we can really do for you. This is like going to a hunting or AR15 fan boy forum and asking if the pictures of the bullet you posted is the real bullet that shot JFK.. There's probably plenty of arm chair experts who will offer all sorts of advice but it's not the right forum for such a question.

Good luck in your research,
Squelchtone

ps. jeez you guys type fast. I just read the last 5 post updates including the story of how this guy landed in the trouble he is in. If this is all legit, and you have to understand we have to be weary of people who come along with stories, (we try to police our own and weed out potential bad apples, especially when people ask about entry into cars, safes, coke machines, laundry machine coin mechanisms, etc) , then like I said, good luck in your research, but I still believe you may get more mileage from a certified locksmith or car dealership service department.

If you want the help of an attorney who specializes in locks, seek out and find Marc Weber Tobias of security.org If he goes to court for you, your guy will walk free that day. http://www.security.org/

[Varjeal]

Now its my turn to be fussy..lol
What exactly does "popped" mean in his terms? Something stuck into a door lock and forced, a tool was used, or does the officer think the key did the job? Or, was the lock just open?

Also, when you say the key was partially in the lock...how far is that?

Here's why I ask:

1. Ford keyways are a little on the wide side...I could stick the tip of nearly any type of key into the lock and it doesn't mean it will actually fit or open it.

2. I'd be asking someone (preferrably an expert) to duplicate the event.

Lastly, I'd like to just say for the record that his previous attorney was not a good one.

[stew5150]

Lastly, I'd like to just say for the record that his previous attorney was not a good one.

And that's why I'm here. I understand that this is a hobbyist's forum and I will look up Mr. Tobias. I also know that hobbyists are sometimes the ones who spend more time thinking on these subjects than others might. Unfortunately, we did not do the trial, we are just doing the work to show his last attorney didn't do what he should have.

As for the popped lock, From what I understand, w/o seeing any pictures or proof, the lock was probably forced with a screwdriver or something similar.

[smhatter]

...but it's not the right forum for such a question.

Nor is any. Any lawyer or legal aid knows that too.

Contacts Mr Tobias, contact a local locksmith, heck, contact a local repo agent that could show what the proper tools do look like. All you are doing here is wasting your client's (very precious) time.

[Squelchtone]

...but it's not the right forum for such a question.

Nor is any. Any lawyer or legal aid knows that too.

Contacts Mr Tobias, contact a local locksmith, heck, contact a local repo agent that could show what the proper tools do look like. All you are doing here is wasting your client's (very precious) time.

I had a feeling this would come up.. I meant forum as in.. the Roman version of the word, not the internet message board forum version.

either way, you're right, they should be contacting industry professionals.

Best,
Squelchtone

[smhatter]

I had a feeling this would come up.. I meant forum as in.. the Roman version of the word, not the internet message board forum version.

Yeah, I meant both to. If you're trying to stack evidence against a "professional" cop, you don't do it with "hobbyists". Regardless of whatever skill level either party may be, the jury is looking for someone that has that same theoretical standing.

I think I would be a bit upset if that is how my lawyer was doing their research

[smhatter]

...testified to the grand Jury...

... Bear in mind that this all happened in 2005, ...

...has been locked up on it for almost 7 to date...

Also....

Given how long these things take, does this time line seem strange to anyone else. No way that started in the grand jury, so it must have been in process even before that.

[mh]

I think asking this internet forum (THE forum for lockpicking-related things) makes total sense. There are many people who are willing to help here, and a lot of knowledge about many specific locking systems and the possibility to manipulate them - to a level that one single local expert will probably never believe.

This particular question, though, is very easy to answer: No, the key does look like a normal key from that picture.
And now your best bet will be to find a local credible expert with the same opinion - and for this particular question that will be extremely easy.

Do come back though, with questions like "can this maximum-security key be copied" or "can a successful picking attempt be distinguished from an unsuccessful attempt by forensics", because for those questions, local experts might now have the full picture.

Cheers
mh

[Varjeal]

Not to toot my own horn..but I'm a CJL and have been locksmithing full time for 12 years....I wouldn't call myself a hobbyist necessarily.

[stew5150]

For one thing, I'm not his Lawyer, as I said in the first post.
I think this was the perfect place to get an idea of how someone in the know would have testified on the subject. I was referred here after searching google led me to lockpickguide dot com. The webmaster of that site referred me here and I think this was the right place.

I also thought the key looked like a regular ol' cut key from Ace hardware. I did not know it was a blank to a Chrysler. Thank-you for that. This was basically an exploratory type of thing in that I wanted to get a few different opinions before I interview an expert. If it ever gets that far. To be honest this case has devolved past the point where any new light shed on the case can even help.

As for your issue with the time-line I am a little confused. This case was remanded back to the grand jury 3 times before the trial and the last time was actually the day before trial. Which was another injustice. His counsel didn't get the transcripts so that he could have seen the cop had lied again, which is why it was remanded the first 3 times.

I haven't had photos of the evidence until yesterday and I will talk to some local people now, as I am pretty sure the client can't afford to have Mr. Tobias come testify as an expert, but from the sounds of it anyone with knowledge in this field can plainly see the truth. Too bad the client didn't have one of you guys in his jury, and his lawyer at the time didn't look into the subject a bit.

I'm very appreciative of the help, and I still stand by my decision to post here and mission was accomplished. I have even learned a bit and now have a new found desire to dig out my picks and dust off my practice locks. Thanks again! Stew.

[smhatter]

Well, provided this is all on the level, I do wish your client good luck (and you as well).

I have even learned a bit and now have a new found desire to dig out my picks and dust off my practice locks. Thanks again! Stew.

I wouldn't, it sounds like the law enforcement in your area sucks.

[Evan]

The only thing that "jiggler" (and I don't believe it is one) would do is open the door (assuming the key fit in the lock, which it normally wouldn't) and turn the ignition (again, assuming that it could and would fit in the lock) but not start the vehicle. If that key is the major piece of evidence in the theft of a Ford truck, your prosecution has no case.

Well the prosecution had enough, with the Officer's testimony and his "expertise" in keys to convict the guy in front of a jury. He was sentenced to 11 1/4 years and has been locked up on it for almost 7 to date.

@stew5150:

File an appeal on the basis that the officer who offered that testimony as an "expert witness" perjured himself on the stand... You can support the claim of perjury with the testimony of any qualified locksmith... You can attack the officer's credibility as any sort of "expert witness" by sending out inquiries to all of the locksmithing industry trade associations to see if the officer was ever/is certified by any of said organizations and has completed any training...

If you get replies back from those organizations saying they have never heard of this officer, he really has no defense to the perjury claim against him as his knowledge about locks was never tested outside the law enforcement alternative reality universe and police officers without locksmithing training are hardly experts at anything to do with locks...

You haven't mentioned where this case took place and whether a license is required to claim one is a qualified locksmith...

~~ Evan

[raimundo]

sounds like they hired tomcoleman, georgebush's lawman of the year, in texas, google tom coleman tulia texas. if you can implicate the prosecutor in the conspiracy, maybe you can start a RICO action against his office, it has already happened in key west florida, where the monroe county sherriffs office was convicted of a RICO violation for selling out to drug smugglers.

RICO Racketeer influenced corrupt organization, a statute under which you can also file civil RICO suits, its not just for prosecutors, its available to you.

[mhole]

If I understand correctly, the cops testimony was that *nobody* could mistake that key for a regular key. Rebutting that claim requires no expert knowledge - you simply present the key to any person, along with a few others, and ask them to identify the alleged jiggler.

If the cop is right, everyone will identify it accurately. If not, his claim is rubbished (as indeed it should have been). To clarify, you are not required to demonstrate that an *expert* might be able to spot the key is dubious, you're being asked to prove that *nobody* could fail to ID it as a jiggler. This is clearly not the case.

[stew5150]

Pima county superior court to answer the where questions. All of this has just came to light. We were actually only appointed as advisory counsel as the defendant has decided to go pro se. And I can't blame him, considering what has been happening to him.