Advice on Lock Selection Please

[skirmish]

Hi there. I wonder if anyone can please help me please.

I'm a product designer and have in the past designed several security products which have been produced by manufacturers. I have recently designed another product which is totally new and together with a UK security product manufacturer we are currently trying to develop it and get it into production. The sticking point at the moment is cost though and it is a bit of a struggle to get the manufacturing cost low enough to enable it to be sold at the price the retailers want to sell it at.

One of the main costs involved is the actual cam lock type mechanism that will be used. My initial design/prototype used a circular opening type lock which is commonly used on lockable cabinets and the Stoplock uses it too. Unfortunately though the company I am working with informed me of the BIC pen technique which is used to defeat this type of lock and was highlighted with the Kryptonite bike locks. they have therefore suggested that we use a 4 pin tumbler type lock with a flat slot which they say will offer greater protection. The problem with this though is that this type of lock is quite a bit more expensive and puts the manufacturing costs up too high.

I wonder if anyone on here can offer some advice regarding the security level of these two types of lock and whether the problem is real or whether it is something we could live with.

Sorry for not divulging too much about the product but I do need to keep the information about it to a minimum while it is being developed and during the patent application process.

Any help or advice greatly appreciated.

[maintenanceguy]

The pen trick is real, it works. However, the security of these tubular locks is no worse than the security of a 4 pin pin-tumbler lock.

Every "standard" lock can be beaten pretty easily by someone who knows how and anyone with an internet connection can learn how (here we are).

There are several high security locks that are much more defeat but these would add a lot to your manufacturing cost and the vast majority of break-ins have nothing to do with picking locks. It's the other parts of your locks and the door that will be the weak point in the design. Few criminals bother to pick when they can smash and kick.

If you want to cheaply add a level of security, you can add a couple of security pins to your lock for pennies extra and it will make either the tubular lock or a regular pin tumbler lock considerably more difficult to pick.

The most common way to use security pins is to put a "spool pin" in as the top pin. This makes a lock difficult to pick but doesn't beat the pen trick. To beat the pen trick, you will need bottom security pins because the pen trick starts with the top pins lifted out of the way. The most common type of bottom security pin is a "serrated pins". Less common but still in use.

If you're not familiar with security pins look at the picture here near the bottom of the page.

[mh]

The "circular opening type" lock you referred to is called a "tubular" lock, and you can get them also in versions that cannot be self-impressioned with cardboard or plastic pens, although more expensive.

The better option rgd. manipulation resistance (and maybe a real selling point, because it looks and obviously really IS more secure): A rotating disk tumbler lock, such as these: http://www.batonlockuk.com/index.php?we ... 98&cID=545

Cheers
mh

[skirmish]

Thank you for your replies. The information you have given is very useful to me.

It is useful to know that the tubular lock has a similar security rating to the 4 pin tumbler type. Although I've designed a few security devices I've always left the final design and specification to the manufacturer so it has been very informative to learn more about the actual lock mechanisms.

While it would be good to use a more secure type of lock I am afraid that the buyers of the retailers who we have contacted insist that there is a price that the product has to sell for. This is the reason why we really do need to get the product manufactured at a certain price. It's difficult but should be achievable.

Thanks again.

[mh]

when it's published, do let us know...

If it's a really interesting product, I might buy it and then change the lock

Cheers
mh

[skirmish]

I'm rather intrigued by the method of opening a tube lock using a pen so I'm in the process of having a go to see if I can do it. No success yet though. Is there a skill or knack to do it?

I've noticed that the Kryptonite lock works because the inner lock barrel seems to be sprung meaning that there is an outwards force pushing the locking barrel out of the housing. Therefore just an in and out action of the pen seems to unlock it?

The lock I want to use has a rotational action working a cam. If the in and out pen motion actually moves the locking pins to the correct position how is a rotational force then applied to actually rotate the cam mechanism and unlock the device?

I hope that makes sense and that you can understand?

[mh]

The Kryptonite locks had all housing pins of equal length, so if you pushed in some plastic material, it would automatically get the shape of the correct key.

[skirmish]

The Kryptonite locks had all housing pins of equal length, so if you pushed in some plastic material, it would automatically get the shape of the correct key.

That sounds like a very basic design flaw.
Am I right in thinking that most modern camlock type designs will have pins with different lengths? If so then I don't see any real reason why we can't revert to using one of these types of lock mechanism.

I've seen examples of picking tools (on Youtube) that allow the different length pins to be pushed down.

I tried to attach a small photo 640x480 of the type of lock I'd like to use onto the forum but it said the quota had been exceeded?

[mh]

Balancing pin stacks (i.e. using a shorter housing pin in chambers with a longer key pin) is more expensive, so - no, most cheap tubular locks are still like that.

You can add links to pictures in this forum, I recommend a free service like http://imageshack.us/ - they will host the picture for you.

[skirmish]

Balancing pin stacks (i.e. using a shorter housing pin in chambers with a longer key pin) is more expensive, so - no, most cheap tubular locks are still like that.

You can add links to pictures in this forum, I recommend a free service like http://imageshack.us/ - they will host the picture for you.

Is it possible to tell which type a lock is? Will it be stated in the specification. Or can you tell by looking at the key perhaps?

[mh]

That may or may not be stated in the specification, you could of course ask the manufacturer to specify that. Or send you breakdown pictures of a lock, incl. all pins and springs.
Or you can take it apart yourself, it's not that difficult.

Usually you can't tell this from the key, unless it's a brand name lock with a branded key, in which case someone might have taken a corresponding lock apart before.

Interesting BTW that when designing security products, the actual lock mechanism apparently plays only a minor role.

Cheers
mh