New guy questions, spool pins, luck, etc.

[shanny19]

Another new guy, thanks for your patience!

After 23 years as a firefighter, it looks like fun to get through locks without
tools that weigh more than the door.........

I'm at the stage where I've got more picks than practice locks, and more
reading than picking under my belt. Have been having fun having my way
with mostly padlocks, mostly Masters. Too cool.

So I've got this brass padlock, the kind with the drill-hampering plate at the keyway.
I have a go at it with a bogota knock-off, and it pops in 15 seconds! YAY!
5 days and probably 5 good picking hours later, I haven't been able to crack
it again. Rakes, SPP, real bogotas, knock-off bogotas, reverse picking, no joy.

So, I take it apart (have a key) and was pretty surprised to find 4 spool pins.
Yikes. For me anyway, Yikes.
My questions are:
Was that first rake job just total, random luck, unlikely to be duplicated given 4 spool pins? I mean, if you
knew it had 4 spool pins would you start off with a rake ever again?
-AND-
Why 4 spool pins in a 5 pin lock? If you're gonna put 4 in, why not go all the way and put 5?????

Thanks!

[MrScruff]

In my experience, raking is always just total, random luck. If you're picking for fun it's the equivalent of disassembling a Rubik's cube; you're going to beat it but you eliminate a lot of the challenge. That's not to say I don't disassemble my cube every now and then, but there's a certain satisfaction from beating it properly.

As for whether that feat is unlikely to be duplicated, it was unlikely to happen in the first place too, right? Who knows, maybe lightning will strike twice.

As for four spool pins and not five, probably cost and effort. Security is all about tweaking the effort/reward ratio in your favor without hitting the point of diminishing returns. Even a cheap lock will keep a lot of criminals out simply by virtue of being locked. At the other end of the spectrum, some determined criminals will just break a window instead. You could install tempered glass windows to give those guys trouble but you have to ask whether it's worth the extra cost. Maybe the company producing the lock did the research and decided that four spool pins had the best cost/security ratio.

[MacGyver101]

Bogotas seem well-suited, in many people's hands, for opening locks with spool pins. Your first opening may have been a fluke -- but I'd wager that you may just be getting a little too frustrated/excited in trying to open it a second time, and you're putting too much pressure on your tension wrench. By design, locks with spool pins will bind up far easier: try lighter turning pressure, and you may find some more success.

Why 4 spool pins in a 5 pin lock? If you're gonna put 4 in, why not go all the way and put 5?????

That thought crossed my mind as well when I first started playing around with repinning some locks with spool pins. It turns out that manufacturers don't do that for a good reason: if every pin stack has a spool pin, then any rotation of the cylinder will immediately cause all of the pins to bind (because there isn't a non-spooled pin there to stop it from rotating). In practice, that means that if you turn the key at all while inserting it, the pins will all jam and you won't be able to insert the key any further (or possibly even remove it) until you release the tension... it would be a pain for anyone trying to quickly open the lock with a key.

[MrScruff]

That thought crossed my mind as well when I first started playing around with repinning some locks with spool pins. It turns out that manufacturers don't do that for a good reason: if every pin stack has a spool pin, then any rotation of the cylinder will immediately cause all of the pins to bind (because there isn't a non-spooled pin there to stop it from rotating). In practice, that means that if you turn the key at all while inserting it, the pins will all jam and you won't be able to insert the key any further (or possibly even remove it) until you release the tension... it would be a pain for anyone trying to quickly open the lock with a key.

Wow, that's really interesting. I thought it was just a cost/benefit thing. Kind of makes me wish I could edit my posts. hehe

[MacGyver101]

Kind of makes me wish I could edit my posts. hehe

That's okay... someone else here will shortly point out that there are a half-dozen cylinder designs that I'm not presently aware of that are, in fact, fully-pinned with spools.

[Evan]

Kind of makes me wish I could edit my posts. hehe

That's okay... someone else here will shortly point out that there are a half-dozen cylinder designs that I'm not presently aware of that are, in fact, fully-pinned with spools.

Not that I am aware of... Even the Best security option SFIC cores have at least two chambers with "normal" (non-spooled) pin segments, although in the security cores these are often hardened steel pin segments to provide even more drill resistance... Like you said a lock pinned with all spools would jam up if the user attempted to apply any rotational force upon the key before it was fully inserted...

~~ Evan

[shanny19]

Thanks for the insights guys, much appreciated.