Re-Key or new Euro cylinder?

[xsupercarlx]

Hi, I have a question I would like to ask,


I have moved into a studio flat but the landlord has given Master keys to everyone who visits the building, from random builders to cleaners, and as a result some peoples stuff has gone missing.

I spoke to the Caretaker and he recommended getting a new Euro Thumb turn cylinder and he will put it in for me.

Now I was wondering if it is possible to just get the lock re-keyed instead of buying a new cylinder, if I got the lock re-keyed is there any chance the master key would still work in it.

The current lock I have is an ERA brand which seems to be all over the place so if I buy another lock I think I’ll have to avoid the ERA brand or else the master key may work on it.

Thank you for your time and I hope I made sense >.<

[MacGnG1]

The old master key could still work... but probably not... so I would suggest taking it to a locksmith. The locksmith could decode the master key from your current cylinder by taking it apart or he could look at your key if you have a copy of the master key that has been given out willy-nilly. Then he would repin the locks so the old master key would not work on the newly pinned cylinder.

Whoever was giving out the copies of the master key either didn't know or didn't care, either way is unacceptable.

[xsupercarlx]

Thanks for the info, i get the impression it may be a little cheaper to buy a new lock.

This is the lock i have atm.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/era-6-pin-eur ... atin/94614

If i was to buy this exact same lock, would the master key work on it? i dont know much about locks but i was assuming the masterkey would work on all Euro cylinders made by ERA.

[EmCee]

Thanks for the info, i get the impression it may be a little cheaper to buy a new lock.

This is the lock i have atm.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/era-6-pin-eur ... atin/94614

If i was to buy this exact same lock, would the master key work on it? i dont know much about locks but i was assuming the masterkey would work on all Euro cylinders made by ERA.

That's not the way master keys work. A master key for a particular brand of cylinder won't work on all cylinders of that brand: what happens is that all the locks within the set (in your case in the block of flats) will have been pinned so that they can all be opened with a master key as well as by the individual keys (which won't, or shouldn't, open more than the one cylinder they are intended to work).

On the other hand, by chance and bad luck, it's possible that the existing master key could work on a new cylinder that you buy. Using a different brand of cylinder with a different shaped keyway (the shape of the 'slot' into which the key fits) would make it all but impossible that the existing master key for the ERA cylinder would open it.

Cylinders are pretty cheap so it might well cost you less than having the existing cylinder re-pinned. On the other hand, probably worth calling a few locksmith shops and finding out what they'd charge, because even if it's around the same or a bit more than the cost of a new cylinder, it might be the most secure option because the locksmith could ensure that it was pinned so that the master key definitely wouldn't work. Remember that if you remove the cylinder and take it to a locksmith shop, you 'll need to have someone else in the flat while you're out as the door will be insecure (assuming you only have the one lock on it).

The casual way that the landlord has given out master keys is unacceptable so to that extent they lose moral authority. On the other hand, check your tenancy agreement because it might prohibit you from changing the cylinder...controlled properly, the benefit of the master key system is that the landlord or authorised agents can access any of the flats in certain (usually specified) situations and emergencies. If you're out and a pipe bursts and starts flooding the flat below, for example (without a master key they might have to bust the door down). But master keys are not intended to be given out to any casual contractor.

You say 'flat' rather than 'apartment' and linked to Screwfix so I assume you are in the UK. What kind of 'flat' is it. If it's in a converted house (House of Multiple Occupation) then the local authority and fire service will have rules that the landlord must meet. The security of tenants is a responsibility for the landlord - giving out master keys goes against that so even if your agreement says you can't change the cylinder, you'd have a pretty good argument for doing so.

Cheers...

[xsupercarlx]

Thanks for the info, i get the impression it may be a little cheaper to buy a new lock.

This is the lock i have atm.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/era-6-pin-eur ... atin/94614

If i was to buy this exact same lock, would the master key work on it? i dont know much about locks but i was assuming the masterkey would work on all Euro cylinders made by ERA.

That's not the way master keys work. A master key for a particular brand of cylinder won't work on all cylinders of that brand: what happens is that all the locks within the set (in your case in the block of flats) will have been pinned so that they can all be opened with a master key as well as by the individual keys (which won't, or shouldn't, open more than the one cylinder they are intended to work).

On the other hand, by chance and bad luck, it's possible that the existing master key could work on a new cylinder that you buy. Using a different brand of cylinder with a different shaped keyway (the shape of the 'slot' into which the key fits) would make it all but impossible that the existing master key for the ERA cylinder would open it.

Cylinders are pretty cheap so it might well cost you less than having the existing cylinder re-pinned. On the other hand, probably worth calling a few locksmith shops and finding out what they'd charge, because even if it's around the same or a bit more than the cost of a new cylinder, it might be the most secure option because the locksmith could ensure that it was pinned so that the master key definitely wouldn't work. Remember that if you remove the cylinder and take it to a locksmith shop, you 'll need to have someone else in the flat while you're out as the door will be insecure (assuming you only have the one lock on it).

The casual way that the landlord has given out master keys is unacceptable so to that extent they lose moral authority. On the other hand, check your tenancy agreement because it might prohibit you from changing the cylinder...controlled properly, the benefit of the master key system is that the landlord or authorised agents can access any of the flats in certain (usually specified) situations and emergencies. If you're out and a pipe bursts and starts flooding the flat below, for example (without a master key they might have to bust the door down). But master keys are not intended to be given out to any casual contractor.

You say 'flat' rather than 'apartment' and linked to Screwfix so I assume you are in the UK. What kind of 'flat' is it. If it's in a converted house (House of Multiple Occupation) then the local authority and fire service will have rules that the landlord must meet. The security of tenants is a responsibility for the landlord - giving out master keys goes against that so even if your agreement says you can't change the cylinder, you'd have a pretty good argument for doing so.

Cheers...

Hi, thanks for that it all makes sense now. I live in a studio apartment which is basically a big building converted into separate smaller living spaces and I am in the UK.

[xsupercarlx]

ah there is another thing i would like to add (i wish we could edit previous posts ), do you know if euro cylinder locks are packaged in boxes that can be opened and closed or if its encased in hard plastic that you have to cut open?

The reason I ask is because if i end up getting a new lock over getting it re-keyed, im going to have to buy it and bring it back to test it against the master key (unless my caretaker will let me borrow it and take it with me), if the master key opens it ill take it back and just get the more expensive yale lock

But im guessing if i have to cut the packaging open they may have a problem with me returning it, hopefully it is just in a simple box like most night latches.

[EmCee]

Yes, I thought of suggesting you borrow a master key and take it with you to test in the lock you want to buy, but apart from the possible problem of borrowing the key (which given the way it's been handed out willy-nilly might not be a problem - on the other hand if the caretaker does let you borrow it and remove it from site, it'd hardly inspire you with confidence since others could probably do the same), there's also the question of packaging which you mentioned.

If you buy a cylinder from a DIY store it's most likely to be packed in the hard plastic you described, making it very difficult to open and return (although not impossible); if you visit a local locksmith shop, they'll be more likely to have cylinders in boxes and should be happy to let you try your key. Cylinders in a locksmith shop will probably be a bit more expensive than those in a DIY store, but may also be higher security.

Cheers...

[xsupercarlx]

Yes, I thought of suggesting you borrow a master key and take it with you to test in the lock you want to buy, but apart from the possible problem of borrowing the key (which given the way it's been handed out willy-nilly might not be a problem - on the other hand if the caretaker does let you borrow it and remove it from site, it'd hardly inspire you with confidence since others could probably do the same), there's also the question of packaging which you mentioned.

If you buy a cylinder from a DIY store it's most likely to be packed in the hard plastic you described, making it very difficult to open and return (although not impossible); if you visit a local locksmith shop, they'll be more likely to have cylinders in boxes and should be happy to let you try your key. Cylinders in a locksmith shop will probably be a bit more expensive than those in a DIY store, but may also be higher security.

Cheers...

i was just thinking the same thing about getting the key, the caretaker is pretty decent and i dont want to put him in the position of handing out the key, i wouldn't be to impressed if i found he gave it to anyone else.

I think ill have to brink the lock back home and get him to test it for me. Im not aware of any locksmiths, ill have to take a look in the phone directory.

Thanks for the help.

[dls]

A standard euro wont come prepackaged as masterkeyed. another brand most certainly wont be masterkeyed to the same system which will be unique to your block. Are you just looking for info on how to decode the master for your block from your key and barrel?

[mhole]

Just buy a euro cylinder and swap it. The odds of your old key working it are about 1 in 10,000. You won't find a locksmith who will rekey your cylinder for less than a basic era cylinder, and you will be able to return the master keyed cylinder to your landlord, who still owns it.

[xsupercarlx]

Hey guys, i just bought another lock today, rather than the ERA brand i got the CISA brand which was a lot better then the crappy budget one i had before. I got the caretaker to put it in the door for me and the masterkey does not work on it as you could imagine so job done.


Thanks for the help guys.

[MacGyver101]

Sorry: coming a bit late to this thread (and glad to hear that everything worked out!)... but, just to help dispel some of the mystique, there's nothing "magic" about a master key. In this case, your building's "master key" started life as just a random, normal key. A locksmith at some point took a set of pins which matched that master key, and put those pins into every lock in your building -- and, because he/she put those pins there, that's the only reason that particular "master key" can open all of those locks (and why it won't work anywhere else).

Just to help frame the risk, for the benefit of someone who's in the same predicament and stumbles onto this thread in the future: the chances of your building's existing master key also opening a new lock that you buy from the store is exactly the same as the chances of your neighbour's key opening your new lock... or your Aunt Mildred's key opening your new lock (assuming that you even all have the same model of lock). The chances are so low that, if you picked a random new lock (of the same make) and replaced the cylinder on your door every day for 30 years, the existing master key would work on one of those locks. (Aunt Mildred could also let herself in once, as well... but she might need help up the stairs if it's nearing the end of that 30-year experiment...)

Just wanted to help clarify a bit, for the benefit of folks who come here looking for help, and aren't so familiar with the internals of locks.

[dls]

Correct me if im wrong but i was always under the impression that a masterkeyed lock can have two different keys to open it, so depending on how the mastering was achieved eg using standard bitting depths and no half or extra depths there could be more.
This would mean that some standard keys cut to standard bitting codes could also work.

Take this simple example of a four pin lock

bitting code of user 1144
bitting code of master 2244
other potential codes which will work 1244 and 2144

this is obviously a very simple discription but there are now four possible keys for this one lock and if you assume five depths there are only about a thousand differs and four potential keys

[Raymond]

That example is basically correct, but, when you get a new cylinder with no maskerkey wafers, no other key will work. Only cylinders that are actually intentionally masterkeyed will have the ghost keys built into the system.

[Rickthepick]

I always get customers ask where i got my master keys from when i get the jigglers out lol