HPC 1200 Punch for new guy on a budget?

[cdub]

Hi all,

I am just starting out in the trade, mostly only interested in doing odd jobs here and there while I build up my education and experience. I think it'd be really helpful to have a good code cutter, but money is tight, and since I won't be making lots of keys on a daily basis, I'm perfectly OK using a manual (i.e. punch) setup.

I've read good things about the HPC 1200 punch. Seems like this is the way to go based on my situation. If I ever get to the point where I need to do higher volume stuff, the HPC would still be useful as a backup or a good candidate for the van.

I want to make sure I'll be able to cut the most common keys - obviously Schlage, Kwikset, etc., but will the HPC punch have any trouble with BEST/SFIC stuff and any other common commercial keys like Corbin-Russwin, Sergant, etc?

I've already got a few projects lined up that'll require BEST keys, so whatever I get, I want to make sure it will cut SFIC keys reliably.

What about maintenance on these? How frequently do they need to be calibrated, are parts cheap, etc?

Thanks for helping me out!

cdub

[Evan]

@cdub:

I would just bite the bullet and buy a machine like the HPC 1200 right off the bat...

It takes less time to unscrew a nut and change cutter wheels than it does to change punch heads...

There are also some types of keys that the three punch heads just can't cut, Sargent being among them as even with an HPC 1200 there is a special cutter wheel just for Sargent keys...

Later on when you are more established you won't have to set a punch machine aside and purchase the HPC 1200 or another more capable machine aside to be able to take on customers and projects that the punch alone can't handle...

~~ Evan

[Hollywoodpick]

I am in your boat to getting started and some things just cost to much right now when you still need so many other things.

You should look at the Pak-A-Punch it can do a lot for code cutting and you can take it with you right to the door and make your keys i have talked with a lot of full timers that use this everyday.

Myself i am going for a SpeedEx and depth and space keys for cutting code. I have read that lots of people started out this way and many still do it this way today.
But i might ad on a Pak-A-Punch to just for home locks to bring with me.

I got my Depth and space keys on Ebay for around $10 a set

A Speedex and lots of sets of Depth and space keys will cost a lot less then the HPC and then you can make fast key dups for yourself and customers.
You can get depth keys for auto and other locks as well.
This is the poor mans way to getting into doing all this and they you can upgrade later on.

If i was going to do just some home keys i would just go for the Pak-A-Punch and take it with me. but you should check and make sure they have dies for all the keys you plan on working with as i am no expert on this at all that's for sure.
You could spend the extra money you save on Pin kits and re-keying tools and other door and key products you will find you end up needing.

[cdub]

I am in your boat to getting started and some things just cost to much right now when you still need so many other things.

You should look at the Pak-A-Punch it can do a lot for code cutting and you can take it with you right to the door and make your keys i have talked with a lot of full timers that use this everyday.

Myself i am going for a SpeedEx and depth and space keys for cutting code. I have read that lots of people started out this way and many still do it this way today.
But i might ad on a Pak-A-Punch to just for home locks to bring with me.

I got my Depth and space keys on Ebay for around $10 a set

A Speedex and lots of sets of Depth and space keys will cost a lot less then the HPC and then you can make fast key dups for yourself and customers.
You can get depth keys for auto and other locks as well.
This is the poor mans way to getting into doing all this and they you can upgrade later on.

If i was going to do just some home keys i would just go for the Pak-A-Punch and take it with me. but you should check and make sure they have dies for all the keys you plan on working with as i am no expert on this at all that's for sure.
You could spend the extra money you save on Pin kits and re-keying tools and other door and key products you will find you end up needing.

@Hollywood I was actually planning on doing the same thing you are when I first started looking into things, but since I want to be able to service SFIC locks, I'm not sure that would cut it. SFICs have very tight tolerances, and from what I've read, keys cut on duplicators can have problems.

@Evan Thanks for the suggestion. I will probably try to save up and get the HPC 1200 Blitz. The fact that the punch can't make Sargent keys is a non-starter for me, since I want to be able to service the most common commercial locks, and Sargent is definitely pretty commonplace around here.

[cledry]

On the HPC 1200 you can certainly cut Sargent keys without the special cutter, as you can on the Punch. What you can't do is cut keys in a system that use factory Sargent MACS. If you generate your own MK system adjust the MACS accordingly.

[cdub]

Thanks for all the input everyone.

After thinking some more, I'm now torn between an Framon #2 and the HPC 1200 Blitz, leaning slightly more toward the Framon. I know its not as easy or fast to use, but it seems more accurate and versatile.

[Evan]

On the HPC 1200 you can certainly cut Sargent keys without the special cutter, as you can on the Punch. What you can't do is cut keys in a system that use factory Sargent MACS. If you generate your own MK system adjust the MACS accordingly.

Which means that if you are trying to service a factory originated Sargent system, you will be unable to do anything useful without the Sargent cutter head with the proper angles...

~~ Evan

[Squelchtone]

You should try places like Craigslist for locksmith gear. Someone goes out of business, that's a place they're likely to sell their gear.

As an examples, here's an HPC Blitz 1200 from August 26th for $900 http://hattiesburg.craigslist.org/tls/2566957680.html

I found that by checking craigslist using a portal that crawls all the different cities and states in the USA: http://www.allofcraigs.com/

best of luck with your business,
Squelchtone

ps. you can also use it to search for sexy hard to find locks: http://roanoke.craigslist.org/clt/2564077832.html and http://kansascity.craigslist.org/hsh/2626190712.html

[cledry]

On the HPC 1200 you can certainly cut Sargent keys without the special cutter, as you can on the Punch. What you can't do is cut keys in a system that use factory Sargent MACS. If you generate your own MK system adjust the MACS accordingly.

Which means that if you are trying to service a factory originated Sargent system, you will be unable to do anything useful without the Sargent cutter head with the proper angles...

~~ Evan

That's true, but I have only run across one factory system versus dozens of accounts who have locksmith generated Sargent systems. When you get a factory system then budget for a Sargent cutter. There are more important things to purchase first. I would get a standard cutter, a 90 degree and the small cutter for desk locks etc. first, followed by the Medeco and the offset cutter for some foreign cars, then after all that worry about the Sargent cutter and the Corbin cutter. At least with the 1200 it is an option, which I don't think the Punch can accomodate.

[Hollywoodpick]

Funny i am just looking at the Framon 2 as well i can get a used one for less then a used HPC punch.
You can buy a 12v motor for the Framon 2 and run it in your auto.
Parts seem to be much less for the Framon 2 then the HPC1200 and after reading a ton of posts in a few places the Framon 2 seems to never need adjusting and never breaks down so cost of ownership is much less then the HPC 1200 over time.

[Evan]

On the HPC 1200 you can certainly cut Sargent keys without the special cutter, as you can on the Punch. What you can't do is cut keys in a system that use factory Sargent MACS. If you generate your own MK system adjust the MACS accordingly.

Which means that if you are trying to service a factory originated Sargent system, you will be unable to do anything useful without the Sargent cutter head with the proper angles...

~~ Evan

That's true, but I have only run across one factory system versus dozens of accounts who have locksmith generated Sargent systems. When you get a factory system then budget for a Sargent cutter. There are more important things to purchase first. I would get a standard cutter, a 90 degree and the small cutter for desk locks etc. first, followed by the Medeco and the offset cutter for some foreign cars, then after all that worry about the Sargent cutter and the Corbin cutter. At least with the 1200 it is an option, which I don't think the Punch can accomodate.

You shouldn't be using the universal pinning kit and the .015" master keying code card -- it is important to master key locks to OEM specifications including using the proper pins and cutter wheels to originate the keys... It might be years before someone else works on the system once you install it if your services aren't retained by the owner, they shouldn't have to take a micrometer to the keys to figure out which method of bastardizing a master keying system for those locks you used because you didn't have the proper equipment to do the work to OEM spec... It might be years before you work on the system again yourself and unless you keep very good records you might be left trying to figure out how you set up the system you created so you can add to it safely...

As to the other cutters you are recommending to obtain, why a Medeco cutter ? LOL, just to pin Medeco locks requires buying three pinning kits (original, biaxial/M3 and the small cam lock cylinders) so you are going to buy a CW-1012 cutter wheel and those three pinning kits to hope that the Medeco locks you might work on one day are an open biaxial keyway which you can obtain blanks for or are original air/sky... Good luck with that... Unless you are going to buy into a Medeco dealer agreement of some kind, I wouldn't invest in all of that just starting out, there are far more examples of Sargent locks out there which you can service properly if you have the right cutter wheel compared to the rare example of older Medecos which you will be able to do anything with because the keyway of the cylinder is restricted to a particular dealer and you can't do anything but replace...

An HPC 1200 comes with two cutters standard: CW-1011 and CW-14MC... If you are doing automotive work you will need the CW-47MC like you said... If you are intending to do work on SFIC's with your machine then you need yet another cutter wheel: CW-90MC... But I would buy the proper cutter wheels for Sargent (CW-20FM) and Kwikset/Weiser using original pins (CW-1014) before I bought the Medeco cutter unless I was entering into a Medeco dealer agreement... There are far more of those two locks out there to be worked on which will immediately start paying for the investment in those cutter wheels compared to the scant few Medecos you would be able to service... If you wanted to be well prepared and able to actually use the machine you just invested in to its fullest potential you would need to purchase those additional 4 or 5 cutters (including the Medeco) depending on whether you bought an original blitz or an extreme blitz package or your supply house kitted you an extra cutter as part of a special package they offered...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

Funny i am just looking at the Framon 2 as well i can get a used one for less then a used HPC punch.
You can buy a 12v motor for the Framon 2 and run it in your auto.
Parts seem to be much less for the Framon 2 then the HPC1200 and after reading a ton of posts in a few places the Framon 2 seems to never need adjusting and never breaks down so cost of ownership is much less then the HPC 1200 over time.

@Hollywoodpick:

It might cost less, but unless you intend to memorize all of the depth and spacing charts for every lock known to man or keep them handy to the Framon II machine at all times, you might tire of having to do all the math and think in thousandths of inches all the time using the machine to cut keys with it... You are essentially cutting by code using a micrometer with a Framon II... The HPC uses the code cards and is symbolic -- you don't need to dial to a depth in thousandths of an inch, you crank the needle to "5" or "7" on the code card which is more visual...

So it comes down to the differences between the big three code machines for the entry level:

Framon II for those who like to think mathematically and numerically all the time...

HPC 1200 Blitz for those who are more visual and symbolic...

ITL 9000 for those who like flashy automatic gizmos and electronics... (not for those who couldn't get their VCR to stop flashing "12:00")

~~ Evan

[cledry]

I don't know any locksmiths that use original Weiser or Kwikset pins. What advantage do you see in using original Weiser or Kwikset pins. Neither lock is very precise. You can get a larger system from either by using Lab pins.

Sargent pins I can understand, especially if you are doing their IC cores, but 90% of Sargent MK systems in this area are Lab pins and not cut using a Sargent cutter. I have both the cutter and pin kit, but I am suggesting for a new locksmith on a budget it is better to wait until the budget allows or wait until a Sargent MK job rolls in. Just because you aren't using Sargent MACs doesn't mean it is a bastardized system that another locksmith couldn't work on. In fact the depth and spaces are the same, and one could easily use Sargent pins in place of the Lab pins within the system.

There are still plenty of Medeco pre-Biaxial in our area.

[Evan]

I don't know any locksmiths that use original Weiser or Kwikset pins. What advantage do you see in using original Weiser or Kwikset pins. Neither lock is very precise. You can get a larger system from either by using Lab pins.

Sargent pins I can understand, especially if you are doing their IC cores, but 90% of Sargent MK systems in this area are Lab pins and not cut using a Sargent cutter. I have both the cutter and pin kit, but I am suggesting for a new locksmith on a budget it is better to wait until the budget allows or wait until a Sargent MK job rolls in. Just because you aren't using Sargent MACs doesn't mean it is a bastardized system that another locksmith couldn't work on. In fact the depth and spaces are the same, and one could easily use Sargent pins in place of the Lab pins within the system.

There are still plenty of Medeco pre-Biaxial in our area.

Using OEM pins in locks which are master keyed means someone won't be able to scope the lock and cut a key...

Using OEM pins in locks which are master keyed is essential in maintaining any sort of UL security rating on such locks if it is offered...

LOL... Do the locksmiths at least use Sargent keys or do they provide the made in china look-a-likes ? Being a former in-house guy, we had to use OEM materials because of factory restricted keyways... I am willing to bet money that most of those Sargent systems are on the LA keyway...

You are lucky that you have serviceable Medeco in your geographical area, come up north and its all laid out by keyways and you are stuck with who you bought it from unless you buy a new keyway plug from another dealer... Which isn't cheap when all you wanted was another key cut but you refuse to do business any longer with the shop that sold you the locks...

~~ Evan

[Squelchtone]

Gentlemen, let's step back a few feet please.

I'm seeing the posts verge on matters of personal preference and opinion, and I'd prefer personal opinions not be crammed down other users throats. Keeping to specs is a good practice, but nobody is out there with a digital micrometer making sure pins installed in a lock are .000005 to spec.. cmon now..

We all do things differently but still all manage to do a good job. What are the chances of OSHA or UL or the State Fire Marshall or ANSI/BHMA or NTSB coming to place any of us just installed or serviced or repinned or master pinned a lock and taking that lock apart to see what pins were used? None. If the key that is cut to proper steps and proper MACS inserts into the keyway and smoothly locks and unlocks the lock, and it happens to have an OEM key but some universal LAB pins, so what, it works. It is a moot point to further the discussion if you guys are just going to nit pick back and fourth about minute details.

Either help the OP save some money starting his business, or don't.

Thank you and play nice.
Squelchtone