Kewi? Locks

[Dpruente]

I've been asked to quote a master keying job on 65 mobile homes. The super told me that they get all their locks from home depot, and that the brand is Kewi, as he spelled it in the email. I searched google and Home depot, and the only thing close to matching that name is kwikset, and kiwi, which the only website I can find on it is a key operated gate control, which is obviously not used on the doors of trailer park homes... I'd really like to know what I'm getting myself into, so that I can enter this bid with the most knowledge I can. If anyone knows anything about this name, Please let me know. Thanks, Dustin

[Squelchtone]

If the guy cannot spell Kwikset, run now and don't bother master pinning KW1 cylinders. I think the major players who make locks that fit those thin doors are Brinks and Kwikset, and maybe Defiant or Mountain Security which are all KW1 keyway and all owned by the same 2 or 3 companies.

You figure at least 15 to 30 mins per lock to take apart, pin up for the original change key, and the master key, put lock back together + travel time from property to property or are they in the same park? You gotta deal with pesky tenants or are these unit empty? Gotta deal with dogs? Tenants with guns? Make sure your price includes some "for my trouble" money, and then just a flat rate for each cylinder. I'd go look at least 1 unit to make sure you know what you're getting into, so the lock isn't some off brand that isn't easy to take apart and uses special pins or some other unpleasant surprise.

You know what be handy? A little table that mounts to the door so you can have a portable workbench right at each door you're working at. Have it secure like a vise would to a table, but it would secure to the door...

good luck with the job!

Squelchtone

PS. it just hit me. The guy who emailed you is looking at key in his hand and it says KW1 and he thinks it says KIWI. Or maybe it's an old KEIL lock, but , that would be really really old, they dont make those any more.

[r0005]

Only thing I could find was this
http://www.acourt.co.nz/home/h00452.htm#keylock

Can you look at them before bidding? Maybe it is a lever set with a common cylinder (like LSDA).

[Evan]

I've been asked to quote a master keying job on 65 mobile homes. The super told me that they get all their locks from home depot, and that the brand is Kewi, as he spelled it in the email. I searched google and Home depot, and the only thing close to matching that name is kwikset, and kiwi, which the only website I can find on it is a key operated gate control, which is obviously not used on the doors of trailer park homes... I'd really like to know what I'm getting myself into, so that I can enter this bid with the most knowledge I can. If anyone knows anything about this name, Please let me know. Thanks, Dustin

@Dpruente:

You can not quote a master keying system properly without a site visit to inspect visually each door which will be a part of the system so you can verify you can actually master key all of the locks to one key... You should also examine a sample lock which looks worn so you can offer advice on whether some of the locks will need to be replaced...

You do not want to be caught by surprise and arrive at the site to do the job for the price you originally quoted sight unseen only to find out that there are unforeseen issues like badly worn hardware or that they require pinning kits or sizes you don't have in stock...

Without the involvement of psychics or crystal balls this information is not something you can trust your potential customers to provide for you... Also never never trust one key as being representative of what types of locks are actually in use, a KW1 keyblank can be misused to operate locks like Arrow AR1, Weslock WK1, Defiant locks (and other clones with that keyway) and some worn Weiser locks... You as the one who knows about locks needs to see for yourself which locks are actually in use on each door to be a part of the system as some doors may use different locks...

+1 to Squelchtone's words of warning and advice...

~~ Evan

[Dpruente]

I agree with you Evan, and make no mistake, I plan on fully inspecting all of the units before even thinking about quoting anything. All of the units are in the same park, and it's actually not in a terrible part of town, so I don't think I'll have to worry about violence, although I will carry the old 45 just in case. I think you're right squelchtone, in that he's looking at the key and can't read it right. I love the idea for the clamp on work bench, and in fact i might try to fab one up over the weekend as a prototype. I'm figuring in a lot of "for my trouble" money into this, and am going to bring a few locksets of the same make and model, so that if I do run into trouble, I can just throw on a new lock and be done with it. I'm not going to use existing keys as change keys, because decoding them all and figuring them into the system could be a pain. Instead i'm going to set up the pins for each lock in individual baggies, with the pins being held together in the correct order with tape. and the keys in the baggie with them. that way I walk up to one, open it, pop the lock out, change the pins, slap it together, and move on. It shouldn't take me more than 5 mins each. The tenants are to either recieve their keys on the spot if they're there, or will leave a note on the door instructing them to pick their new key up inside their mailbox, which the super does have access to. I've been told that every unit has the exact same make and model of lock on it, but i'm obviously going to find out for myself at bidding time. All in all, if everything checks out and is under Ideal conditions, I should be able to get them all done in about a day, maybe less. If i have the bid, I'll just cut all new keys with my cnc machine, as I can lay 24 of them on the mill and have them all cut automatically with cad software. I do happen to have masterkey pro, so there's no real work in building the system. How much would you charge for this under perfect conditions?

[r0005]

Not sure what other charge but in perfect conditions:
Usually $20 a rekey
Key blank cost plus $7 per key
service charge

[Squelchtone]

Not sure what other charge but in perfect conditions:
Usually $20 a rekey
Key blank cost plus $7 per key
service charge

wait, $20 a rekey, another $7 even though the blank only costs $2, then a service charge? I would think the $20 for rekey IS the service charge. What else do you wanna charge? a drive out fee of $50?

This is where the general public starts to question the service industry because advertisements say things like "lockouts only $50!" and then you get the bill and it's $179 because of added charges.

just venting my frustration from the consumers' point of view...
Squelchtone

[Evan]

Not sure what other charge but in perfect conditions:
Usually $20 a rekey
Key blank cost plus $7 per key
service charge

wait, $20 a rekey, another $7 even though the blank only costs $2, then a service charge? I would think the $20 for rekey IS the service charge. What else do you wanna charge? a drive out fee of $50?

This is where the general public starts to question the service industry because advertisements say things like "lockouts only $50!" and then you get the bill and it's $179 because of added charges.

just venting my frustration from the consumers' point of view...
Squelchtone

@Squelchtone:

You have a valid point, but again for a lot of the residential re-lock jobs most people don't know the condition of the locks or even have a proper count of the number of locked doors, especially if they have recenty moved into the house...

There is just no way to make a rock-solid, no wiggle room quote blindly over the phone... There is always going to be some situation that is discovered as the work is being done that will add to the price and it is unreasonable to expect a locksmith to eat the cost of supplying a lock so that all the doors in the house can be operated by one key because the last homeowner bought a Schlage on a house full of Kwiksets or vice versa because a customer insists that they stick to the quote given over the phone...

Agreed that a quote of $50 shouldn't result in a final bill of $179 in normal circumstances but sadly sometimes customers leave out some of the necessary information: there is a difference between the cost of re-keying 10 Schlage locks on a home and the same home if you were re-keying 10 Medeco locks...

There would also be a difference in price if a customer called a locksmith out to open a car, then also tried to have the locksmith "repair" the ignition lock too, "since you are already here" to fix a bent wafer which has jammed it from like 10 pounds of keys and crap hanging from the lock every time the car is used, or "now that you have it open, can you make me an extra key too?" sort of thing...

If you are called out to re-key a door lock and that is all the customer is willing to pay for, it isn't your problem to repair bad hinges on the door or fix the door frame if it is broken -- you inform the customer that sub-par conditions exist and ask them if they want you to undertake those additional repairs for additional costs... The service you were called to provide was completed, all that has to be done to cover oneself totally is to make note on the invoice of the site conditions and make certain that the customer has indicated that they decline the additional repairs when they sign your invoice...

~~ Evan

[Dpruente]

r0005, You're talking 1700 bucks for some res. quality rekeys in a trailer park, with no drive time between them, and it's less than a mile away from the shop. For auto lockouts, it's 25.00 for me to leave the house, 30 for nights and weekends, then if i do the job, that amount gets included in the $49.95 lockout charge. that's to cover me from the "coathanger joes" who on a lucky day, get it open before I show up. I'm going to detail in the estimate very clearly that I'm NOT going to perform ANY services not within the contract, unless they agree to pay the extra amount for it. They're gonna get charged for the 20 or so extra locks that I'm taking with me, and what ones I don't use, they're gonna get in a box when I'm done, because they paid for them. I'm not out to screw anyone, and I'm quite sure I'm one of the most fair locksmiths in my area. I'm probably going to give this guy a bulk discount, charging him a 50% markup for the pins and keys, my usual 75% on the extra locksets, and $9.99 per lock, seeing as i've mastered kwikset locks, and under excellent to fair conditions, I can usually get one apart, pin it, reinstall it, and test it in about 5 mins. At that rate, I'm ending up making a gross profit of $120/hr. and If I cut the blanks with the cnc machine, there's virtually no preprep other than sorting the pins. I'm one of the cheaper guys in town because I'm efficient and work very quickly. also squelchtone, I put together a quick prototype this morning of the portable workbench you were talking about. I did it with a wood clamp, a taco bell food tray, some angle iron, and a couple nuts and bolts. It works great, but It's a little heavy with the angle iron. I think I'm going to try using the clamp as the mount, seeing as it has a lot of extra metal on it that can be bent, as I don't have to open it very far. This is the clamp I'm talking about:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R ... ogId=10053

The only difference is mine is a 24" clamp, not a 6".

[Squelchtone]

also squelchtone, I put together a quick prototype this morning of the portable workbench you were talking about. I did it with a wood clamp, a taco bell food tray, some angle iron, and a couple nuts and bolts. It works great, but It's a little heavy with the angle iron. I think I'm going to try using the clamp as the mount, seeing as it has a lot of extra metal on it that can be bent, as I don't have to open it very far. This is the clamp I'm talking about:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R ... ogId=10053

The only difference is mine is a 24" clamp, not a 6".

You had me at Taco Bell. (love that place and ever since I moved to where I live right now outside of Boston, there isn't one for like an hour in either direction (if you include 128/95 traffic) Back where I lived I had 5 Taco Bell's all within 20 mins of my house, so I was spoiled.

I had an alternate idea.. I noticed the full length mirror on the inside of my bedroom door is not attached to the door but instead, it is on two hangers that hook over the top of the door. maybe a table would work better if you hooked it over the top of the door.

Like this thing, only have the arms be longer to reach to work height where the deadbolt and knobset are. a rubber mat could keep parts and handtools from rolling off.




It's cool that you mocked something up so quickly.

Squelchtone

[r0005]

r0005, You're talking 1700 bucks for some res. quality rekeys in a trailer park,

Maybe that wasn't clear, $20 for a master rekey with a key included. It is more than likely $1300 for 65 locks at that rate.

I've never done more than a couple locks at a time so maybe that model doesn't scale well for a job that big. What do others charge?

[Evan]

r0005, You're talking 1700 bucks for some res. quality rekeys in a trailer park,

Maybe that wasn't clear, $20 for a master rekey with a key included. It is more than likely $1300 for 65 locks at that rate.

I've never done more than a couple locks at a time so maybe that model doesn't scale well for a job that big. What do others charge?

@r0005:

Once you get into jobs with hundreds of doors you aren't charging anything per lock anymore unless there was something with the lock or cylinder needed to be replaced -- you get into the "hourly rate" kind of territory and get to account for the hours of shop time invested in originating and stamping the keys you need for the job in the shop before you arrive at the client's site to start the re-key job... You charge per key originated, stamping/marking fee, pinning supplies, etc. and a predetermined hourly rate for the x-number of hours the job will take...

I mean in a new office building or apartment/condo complex, it would take you or your employee more time to record and account for what tasks were done on which doors if you were billing per hole drilled in the door/per lock installed/per cylinder master keyed than it would to just do the actual work installing and keying the locks for a flat hourly rate...

Per door/hole drilled/lock installed/key produced charges are usually for small jobs that also include a trip/service call fee...

~~ Evan

[Dpruente]

Yep, you're right. It doesn't scale very well. I can quote 1300, but not 1700. I talked to him a little on the phone to set up the quote, and got a feel of how he works and what he's looking for. He kind of hinted that he didn't want to pay more than 1500, so i think i'll light him up if i come in 200 under what he was expecting.

Haha squelchtone, If i'm ever out in boston i'll bring a couple grilled stuft burritos for ya! I virtually live in a machine shop. My father is an aircraft engineer, and when I got my house it came with a huge pole barn, and my dad rents the space, paying me use of the shop in exchange for being able to set up there. I put a wall up, and divided the whole thing 25/75. My dad gets to use the 75, and the remaining 25 is the lock shop. If I get ideas for stuff, I just walk into the machine shop and try them. I like the hanger Idea, I'd obviously have to have some kind of coating on the hanger arms and back of the table, so that I don't scratch anyone's door. that's why i grabbed the clamp, because it has rubber gripping surfaces. I'm gonna use a tray that has lipped edges so that things can't roll off, and maybe press in 3 rows of 6 divetts so that I can hold pins/springs in an organized manner.

[Dpruente]

also, I used the clamp because I wanted the tray to sit directly under the knob, to catch falling parts

[Evan]

Yep, you're right. It doesn't scale very well. I can quote 1300, but not 1700. I talked to him a little on the phone to set up the quote, and got a feel of how he works and what he's looking for. He kind of hinted that he didn't want to pay more than 1500, so i think i'll light him up if i come in 200 under what he was expecting.

Haha squelchtone, If i'm ever out in boston i'll bring a couple grilled stuft burritos for ya! I virtually live in a machine shop. My father is an aircraft engineer, and when I got my house it came with a huge pole barn, and my dad rents the space, paying me use of the shop in exchange for being able to set up there. I put a wall up, and divided the whole thing 25/75. My dad gets to use the 75, and the remaining 25 is the lock shop. If I get ideas for stuff, I just walk into the machine shop and try them. I like the hanger Idea, I'd obviously have to have some kind of coating on the hanger arms and back of the table, so that I don't scratch anyone's door. that's why i grabbed the clamp, because it has rubber gripping surfaces. I'm gonna use a tray that has lipped edges so that things can't roll off, and maybe press in 3 rows of 6 divetts so that I can hold pins/springs in an organized manner.

@Dpruente:

Weatherstripping gasketing material works well when you use it to prevent scratching...

I would stick to your original idea of using the clamps... The clamps are going to be adjustable to doors of varying thicknesses much better than something which would hang off the top of the door in the manner suggested by the "over-the-door coat hook" type device as suggested by other posters...

As for what to use to splay out the pins of a lock ? Use a scrap of commercial metal door sill, especially one with seven valleys if you can find it, cut a piece of the door sill to fit whatever table or workbench you are using to suit your needs...

~~ Evan