Stopped at Customs???

[MacGyver101]

@mh: If you're trying to use a tool to open a lock and you either: (a) don't own the lock; or, (b) aren't licensed as a Locksmith... then you're not allowed to possess tools that open the lock.

(Not saying that's any clearer...) :-)

[mh]

@mh: If you're trying to use a tool to open a lock and you either: (a) don't own the lock; or, (b) aren't licensed as a Locksmith... then you're not allowed to possess tools that open the lock.

(Not saying that's any clearer...)

Yes...
My point was:

A person, other than an authorized person or an owner of a locking device, must not possess any instrument designed or adapted to open or bypass a locking device without using the key or combination unique to that locking device..."

means that this restriction does not apply to anyone who owns any locking device, which would be nearly everyone...

[scriptguru]

Obviously, this should be explained like this:
- Owner is who actually owns the locking device (that's the easy part :) )
- Authorized person is a person who has a legal right to open the locking device. This right could be delegated by owner (if you rent an appartment or if you hired a locksmith to open your lock, for example) or federal/provincial organization (if you are firefighter, police locksmith, etc)

Everyone else is not an "authorized person or owner", and therefore have no right to open the lock by any means.

Therefore, even if you found a key for the lock which you don't own (and not authorized to open), and if you are trying to open the lock, you are performing criminal offence as well as if you would try to open it with lockpick.

[MacGyver101]

[quote="scriptguru"]- Authorized person is a person who has a legal right to open the locking device. This right could be delegated by owner (if you rent an appartment or if you hired a locksmith to open your lock, for example) or federal/provincial organization (if you are firefighter, police locksmith, etc)[/quote]

In this case, an "authorized person" is someone authorized by the BC Security Services Act to act as a locksmith (rather than someone authorized by the owner of the lock). The intent of the law here, as I read it, is more to stop someone from working as a locksmith and doing work for other people, unless they're licensed. (i.e., you're allowed to work on your own locks, but not someone else's.)

[mh]

I agree that this all makes sense.

But a law should be a clear and simple rule,
and this law talks about a person that owns a 1st lock and an instrument that can open a 2nd lock without being designed specifically for that 2nd lock -
and if the person owns a 1st lock, this law does not apply.

Why does it not read "A person, other than an authorized person or an owner of a locking device, must not possess any instrument designed or adapted to open or bypass that locking device without using the key or combination unique to that locking device..."
?

Cheers
mh

[scriptguru]

For sure, laws should be clear and simple (but clear and simple for WHO?). However, it's not always possible to write such laws, and government hires specially trained smart guys to answer questions like this. In this particular case I asked a question and received an explanation in less than 24 hours, for free. Isn't that great? :)

[MrScruff]

[quote="mh"]Laws...
Who would actually fit to this description: "A person, other than an authorized person or an owner of a locking device"?

Cheers
mh[/quote]

Anyone who doesn't have permission to enter your building, safe, vehicle, etc. Basically, if you don't own it or don't have the owners permission, don't touch it.

[scriptguru]

In some cases (police, firefighters, etc) owner's permission is not needed.

However, the main idea which is 100% clear if you read the official letter, is that it is perfectly legal to pick your own locks and possess lockpicks for this reason, so even if customs have any questions you have a good answer for them.

[andy17]

Sorry to be so late to this discussion.

[quote="mh"]Why does it not read "A person, other than an authorized person or an owner of a locking device, must not possess any instrument designed or adapted to open or bypass [b]that[/b] locking device without using the key or combination unique to that locking device ..."[/quote]

I agree 100% with you, mh. The drafter of that subsection seems to have stuffed up there. The use of "a" instead of "that" does mean that anyone who owns a locking device can possess a lockpick. Whether that would get you off the charge in a court would, I guess, depend on whether the judge interpreted it literally or using a commonsense approach.

However, if it said "that", it seems to me that it would still not be a great bit of drafting, because it doesn't discuss intent. If you had a standard lockpick set on you and you walked past a shop with a pin tumbler lock, because that pick set is designed to open pin tumbler locks, you would be liable under that subsection, even if you had made no attempt to open the lock and had no intention to try.

[xequar]

Coming at this from a different angle, I can testify from first-hand experience that if you're an American and you get stopped and searched going into Canada, and you have lockpicks in the car, they will not let you into the country. I had forgotten I had the picks in the car, so it was pure coincidence when the guards found them in the search. As the one guard put it, "We're not going to arrest you for having these." They basically offered me the option of surrendering them or turning back, and since I live very close to the border, I just turned back.

[chainfire]

i just recently started picking as a hobby. and ordered from TOOOL.us and Peterson lock pics. I live in ontario and had zero issue. I am not a locksmith and did not even have my packages opened by customs. i have placed 3 separate orders with zero incident. AFAIK picks in canada are completely legal as long as you are not using them for illegal purposes.

[MacGyver101]

[quote="chainfire"]AFAIK picks in canada are completely legal as long as you are not using them for illegal purposes.[/quote]

That's true in Ontario. Not true in a number of other provinces. The criminal code leaves it up to the provinces to decide if they require licensing, and a number of them (e.g., BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan) have opted to do so. As a result, having lockpicks in those provinces is a problem unless you're licensed: if you're caught with them in the wrong circumstances you could (in theory) be charged under Section 353 of the Criminal Code. (There are a few different threads where this has been discussed over the years; have a search around -- there's been some good discussion.)

The net result is that your Customs experience, when receiving picks mailed into Canada, may vary, depending on which province you're receiving the package in.

[chainfire]

macguyver,
thanks for clarifying the issue for me. i guess us ontarians are guilty of thinking that everything in canada is the same as we are.

How does one travel to various conventions around the world with tools? mail them? or take on the plane? just interested since i travel alot to the US and would love to take my gear with me to practice with. Currently i sit in Seattle with idle hands for fear of being even further screened by immigration.

[ckc123]

I've had pacakges what contained picks get opened by customs and they came through fine.. I'm in Ontario so there is no issue with having them as long as I'm not using them to break the law.