Dealer sold me sample cores,

[Old Canuck]

I am not lock picker or in the trade. First post here.

I purchased replacement door locks and cores. Asked for Medeco M3 and they sold me KeyMark. I accepted these, disappointed, wanting to get the job done. After installing and back at the dealers checking on a back-order item, am looking at the KeyMark display models that all have the same keys stamped "SAMPLE". Wondering if the identical keyway, I put my house key into a sample lock. It not only fit, it opened all of the sample locks. I was sold three cores that are all the sample key code and all of the keys in the sample locks are identical to my house key.

So that is a major mess. M3 cores are on order.

With a controlled keyway, does the locksmith have an obligation to manage key codes to prevent duplications? I thought that they would have software to manage that.

Are factory sample cores marked in any way that would help avoid a problem like this?

-thanks-

[I do not deal with locks very much, but when I was a kid I gutted and rebuilt a 7 pin restricted keyway. That was my first and last adventure. That all stated when someone presented me with a lock vandalized with a back cut key and asked if I could fix it.]

[keysman]

...It not only fit, it opened all of the sample locks. I was sold three cores that are all the sample key code and all of the keys in the sample locks are identical to my house key.

Did you buy this from a locksmith or a " Home Depot" type store?
It is possible the " sample locks" we not pinned at all or just had 1 pin common to your purchased locks. Either way I would speak with the manager and DEMAND a FULL refund or repair/ replacement of the locks /keys you purchased.

[MacGnG1]

well first of all they gave you the wrong thing, you specifically asked for M3 and they gave you keymark. Then they gave you a sample key and cylinder, which is very irresponsible and shady as they are typically provided to dealers for free.

I know the sample keys are stamped "sample" because I have a few but I dont think the cores are stamped.

I would definitely demand a refund and replacements... also I would find another locksmith for any future purchases.

[Evan]

I purchased replacement door locks and cores. Asked for Medeco M3 and they sold me KeyMark. I accepted these, disappointed, wanting to get the job done. After installing and back at the dealers checking on a back-order item, am looking at the KeyMark display models that all have the same keys stamped "SAMPLE". Wondering if the identical keyway, I put my house key into a sample lock. It not only fit, it opened all of the sample locks. I was sold three cores that are all the sample key code and all of the keys in the sample locks are identical to my house key.

@Old Canuck:

That is quite a statement to make -- I would hope that you took a picture of the keys you were sold for your locks next to the sample keys and locks which had an identical bitting...

Sounds like a mistake was made somewhere as the sample locks are usually a special keyway which is not used by anyone...

So the questions here are:

1. Why did you buy the locks from the locksmith to install yourself ?
2. Why did you accept a product that wasn't what you asked for ?

I don't buy the story about accepting Keymark over Medeco M3 because they were "out of stock" on it, there is quite a difference in price between those two cylinders...

I agree with what keysman has said about asking for the situation to be rectified however at the same time I feel that the entire story hasn't been told/disclosed here...

~~ Evan

[Old Canuck]

Why did you buy the locks from the locksmith to install yourself ?

Mostly because I prefer to many things myself. I take pleasure in that.

I purchased at the counter and I wanted to install the replacement hardware myself. The new hardware lock strikes were heavier, also a different profile. I carefully chiseled out the door frame and door edge to accommodate, not something that I wanted to entrust to a someone else. I also refined the hinge bedding to improve the door fit.

It is possible the "sample locks" we not pinned at all or just had 1 pin common to your purchased locks?

The locks did not feel partially pinned, in any case the keys were identical; which is the real issue.

I put the sample keys on top of mine, they were exactly the same key bitting. I showed this to the manager and there was no contest; he was quite embarrassed. He suggested that someone grabbed a core that happened to be a sample core then make up a set of three to match. The situation was already awkward enough and I did not cross examine him. I was not happy that he sent me home with a non adjustable 2 3/4 back set when I told him everything was 2 3/8, and then wanted to provide a different strike that was smaller than the strike that I had just chiseled out in the door and a different finish. The project seems jinxed.

I don't buy the story about accepting Keymark over Medeco M3 because they were "out of stock" on it

This was at a full service locksmith and security company. They have a lock display area that is around 700-800 square feet and a large work shop. They promote Medeco and display the full line, but they are not M3 dealer and do not core those in-house. I think that they are probably a very good organization, but things have not gone well. I accepted because I wanted to get the locks installed while the weather was good.

Did you buy this from a locksmith or a " Home Depot" type store?

They are the best locksmith/dealer within 30 miles.

Why did you accept a product that wasn't what you asked for ?

I was wanting to get the locks done accepted the KeyMark cores. I know they are vastly different. Yes, I was a pussy about that.

The counter guy showed me the M3 then we talked about a bunch of other stuff and somehow we ended up not taking about the same thing. I spoke Medeco M3 he was hearing Medico KeyMark, even after I pointed out that first cost was really not an issue. He showed me the M3 key that he carries. I offered to pay up front, and he said not necessary. I said we should write up the order, he says not needed, he has it.

I would definitely demand a refund and replacements.

No problem have not paid for anything yet, waiting for an Arrow digital deadbolt for the third core. There will not be any fighting over the costs of the KeyMark cores.

The dead bolts and passage lock are grade 2 hardware. With windows in or adjacent to the doors, grade 1 does not make any sense. The need for high security cores is strongly driven by wanting to own technical excellence.

[Evan]

I purchased at the counter and I wanted to install the replacement hardware myself. The new hardware lock strikes were heavier, also a different profile. I carefully chiseled out the door frame and door edge to accommodate, not something that I wanted to entrust to a someone else. I also refined the hinge bedding to improve the door fit.

There is the missing element to the story... You are one of those fussy people who need to do every last detail of something yourself not realizing that your homeowner's insurance isn't going to cover a door frame repair if you botched the job yourself, but the locksmith has insurance coverage just in case something of that exact nature happens... They also have nifty specialized tools, punches and jigs such that installing a dead bolt takes an experienced technician less than 7 minutes even having to drill holes in a blank door, from un-boxing the lock to installing the recessed strike plates...

I was not happy that he sent me home with a non adjustable 2 3/4 back set when I told him everything was 2 3/8, and then wanted to provide a different strike that was smaller than the strike that I had just chiseled out in the door and a different finish. The project seems jinxed.

This sort of thing happens when one goes about buying commercial door prep locks to install on non-commercial doors... Commercial grade lock sets are not the grade 3 crap with the user adjustable back set because commercial door locks are commonly used in fire rated doors and there are not any adjustable back set locks which are fire rated... This is why people who don't install lock sets on a routine basis should call a service tech out to do a site survey and issue a price quote... The experienced locksmith field techs can spec the correct stock number lock set for the existing door prep, even if you insist upon installing the locks yourself...

This was at a full service locksmith and security company. They have a lock display area that is around 700-800 square feet and a large work shop. They promote Medeco and display the full line, but they are not M3 dealer and do not core those in-house. I think that they are probably a very good organization, but things have not gone well. I accepted because I wanted to get the locks installed while the weather was good.

That is actually fairly common with some types of high security lock brands, the equipment buy in is often too pricy for smaller lock shops and the dealer contract fees can be a bit much on a business that isn't servicing several large keying systems using those high security product lines... So the locksmith in this specific case orders Medeco M3 locks keyed up by their distributor to sell to the customers... It takes all of a day or two lead time to fulfill orders of that type unless the distributor is REALLY slow...

They are the best locksmith/dealer within 30 miles.

I was wanting to get the locks done accepted the KeyMark cores. I know they are vastly different. Yes, I was a pussy about that.

Making a mistake like this, they are not the best... It sounds like it was a combination of your insisting/wanting to install locks yourself that you absolutely NEEDED to walk out of the shop with them THAT DAY which added abnormal pressure on the part of the shop to immediately fill an order which they would normally order from the distributor to fulfill...

No problem have not paid for anything yet, waiting for an Arrow digital deadbolt for the third core. There will not be any fighting over the costs of the KeyMark cores.

You keep saying "cores" are these lock sets commercial grade SFIC type lock sets or are they standard grade two lock sets with KeyMark cylinders installed in the place of the normsal AR1/AR4 cylinders ? Because you are talking about a LOT more cost for SFIC type locks and hardware which supports LFIC Medeco M3 cores...

~~ Evan

[Old Canuck]

Guilty on most charges. I will still do my own work, do not deny me a hobby. Time on task is not an issue. I do have some needs to complete work when I have a window of available time. Insurance claim for door frame damage... give me a break.

The KeyMark lock cores are all key-in-knob type in grade 2 hardware.
http://www.medeco.com/?option=com_medeco&view=productview&app=Retail&productid=169&Itemid=812

expecting:
http://www.medeco.com/index.php?option=com_medeco&view=productview&app=Rim%20and%20Mortis%20Locks&productid=106&Itemid=338

[Evan]

@Old Canuck:

Arrow Grade 2 lock sets with Medeco replacement cylinders is a good price conscious way of installing high security locks without the cost of Medeco branded locks...

I know a locksmith in my area that often provides that combination of lock and cylinder to the typical residential customers...

When you get your M3 cylinders installed you will have good protection compared to 90% of the other homes in your area considering only the locks...

~~ Evan

[MacGnG1]

so is the locksmith going to give you the right cylinders? the whole situation still seems a bit shady to me.

[Old Canuck]

I would say FUBAR, not shady. The manager has ordered the M3 series 20 cores and everything will be good. Other than the that, this does seem unbelievable that this could happen and that I then discovered what happened. I will be asking what they are doing for key code control and why they are not entering sample key codes in their system. One can argue that it seems so very improbable that this could happen and then also be discovered. The flip side is then I have to doubt that this the first time this has occurred. I enjoy problem solving, but this has been frustrating. A simple answer is that someone was lazy and avoided pinning a set of 3 cores. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

Someone was asking about the lock dealer: The KeyMark key blanks are specific to them and the keys have been struck, not stamped, with their logo. And the six keys were also stamped 1-6 with a key control number. I think that they are trying to do everything right. There flaws in the system are: sample core bodies are not marked or properly quarantined, sample lock key codes need to be registered in their key control software. The second provision should actually be the only measure required to prevent this from happening.

Does the fact that sample keys fit my house locks really represent a risk? I would say probably not at all if a simple mistake. However, I had the expectation that there could not be a duplicate key within the region.

I would like to hear from some locksmiths here about this event, key management best practices and sample cores.

[Evan]

Someone was asking about the lock dealer: The KeyMark key blanks are specific to them and the keys have been struck, not stamped, with their logo. And the six keys were also stamped 1-6 with a key control number. I think that they are trying to do everything right. There flaws in the system are: sample core bodies are not marked or properly quarantined, sample lock key codes need to be registered in their key control software. The second provision should actually be the only measure required to prevent this from happening.

Does the fact that sample keys fit my house locks really represent a risk? I would say probably not at all if a simple mistake. However, I had the expectation that there could not be a duplicate key within the region.

I would like to hear from some locksmiths here about this event, key management best practices and sample cores.

@Old Canuck:

My educated guess without knowing the specific businesses involved or the people who made the mistake (not that I desire to know much more detail), it sounds to me like they made their own "Sample" locks to put on display using their dealer keyway rather than ordering legitimate Sample locks equipped with the dummy keyway that isn't issued for any other purpose...

Usually a Sample lock would have no problem, they are a special keyway and cut at the factory to designated bittings for the examples being demonstrated... But in this case the dealer has used their assigned keyway for whatever the reason...

As far as the bitting code registration there are methods used to keep a register of all bittings used so that they are not repeated in a given area on the same keyway... Those records may or may not be kept on a computerized system... In this case there would be a contractually specified way of doing this and keeping those records to Medeco KeyMark standards...

~~ Evan