Phenomenal lock for a (wanna be) phenomenal house...

[SeattleTexan]

Hello All!
I am new to the forums, but not new to locks. The more complex the better, in my thoughts.
So I'm looking into high security locks for my house. I want electro-mechanical - this I know. I want it because if my next-door neighbor's kid loses the key I give them, or my ex won't give hers back, I just do a quick reprogram, and the absent key is useless.
I also like the idea of being able to set said keys to work for a specific amount of time or on certain days. For instance, if I'm out of town, I can give one to a friend to let my dog out, but they can't come over and order pay-per-view porn after 9:30.
On that same note of abuse of my cable box, is the fact I can audit the lock to see who came in, so I know who to forward my cable bill to.
I've been doing quite a bit of looking around, and so far, I've only seen 3 that I really like. The first place tie goes to the Mul-T-Lock MT5+ Cliq and the Abloy Protec Cliq (tho I'd be far happier if they'd go ahead with a Sentry Cliq), and second place goes to the Medeco Logic. I'm not knocking Medeco: I think they make a great product, but after watching a DefCon clip on YouTube of a young girl bumping their "unbumpable" lock in a matter of seconds, I'm not sure pin-tumbler only is the way I want the mechanical end to work.

The "Must Have's" are the benefits of the electronics that I mentioned above, it's absolutely gotta be unbumpable, and I know no lock is completely pick proof, so I'll just say that it needs to be a real bugger to pick.
Currently, all my lock sets are the traditional American tubular locks, save the Yardeni 10 rim cylinder for the garage side door drop bolt.
I currently have a Mul-T-Lock Interactive single cylinder, an Abloy Protec knob set, and an Abloy Disclock Pro (which I think is discontinued) double cylinder. Oh, and a 5-pin Medeco rim on the garage door.
I want to re-lock the whole house. Both house doors, the garage side door (which that door will be replaced, so the drop bolt may not be necessary), and the garage door itself. I'm reading things here and there that lead me to believe that mortice locks are far better than tubular. I'm going to be replacing exterior doors as I renovate anyway, so if mortice locks are in fact better, I'll look for doors that are either already equipped with mortice locks, or not prepped for tubulars.

I'm not limiting myself to just the Protect/MT5+ Cliq and Logic. If you know of something better, or you think something else would be better, all opinions are welcome. I do need these to be electro-mechanical tho, because I'll need the mechanical key for padlocks and other small locks, where either cost or size prohibit E/M locks.

And no, locks won't be the only line of defense. I am also going to be installing a monitored security/fire alarm system in the very near future. Help lower the home owner's insurance premiums.

Thanks in advance to all!
-Matt

[Old Canuck]

I sort of did the same in a way. My experience is limited. I want pick-proof hardware, but do not like the idea of a pick-proof lockout.

You can re-core any digital lock to whatever standard you want.

I am getting Medeco M3 series 20 [key in knob] cores for two doors. The front door [3rd] is a digital touch pad* with a key override. The core is been replaced with a M3 core. If you have nothing but advanced locks and get locked out, the digital lock will let you in. If the digital lock malfunctions, you can get in with the key. There are digital locks with no keys, that look attractive at first...

* http://www.arrowlock.com/en/site/arrowlock/ a rather simple implementation.

There were other doors that had vulnerable cores. I replaced those with dummy cores as we never have a need to enter via those and they also are zoned for instant alarm if opened when the security system is armed. Your security system should not use time delays on all possible entry doors. A back door that is hidden from view for example.

[SeattleTexan]

What do you know about these electronic locks offered by Morning Industry? I know they're residential based, and they use a Schlage 5-pin C core. Would they be worth putting a something like an MT5+ or Protec core into?

[Evan]

@SeattleTexan:

Are your glass windows breakable ?

Before you spend all kinds of crazy money on expensive mortise lock hardware and Cliq electromechanical cylinders upgrade the most vulnerable aspect of your home, the glass windows...

~~ Evan

[Squelchtone]

What do you know about these electronic locks offered by Morning Industry? I know they're residential based, and they use a Schlage 5-pin C core. Would they be worth putting a something like an MT5+ or Protec core into?

If you're on the net looking up Morning Industry and hoping a Protec core can be dropped into one of them, then I can tell you're not serious about getting "Phenomenal" locks. We all want to live in a Fort Knox bunker but it seems you've got champagne appetite and a beer budget.

Granted I was going to initially reply to your post before everyone else jumped on you but there are differing schools of thought here that will nit pick to no end that even if you get a Grade 1 deadbolt on your door, then you have to make sure your door is metal, and has metal frame, and you have to have security laminate on your windows, and an armed guard patrol with snipers on the roof, and a CCTV system, and shaker wire on the perimeter fence, etc, etc, etc, yadda yadda.

My point is that you will get 20 different answers from 20 different people here all who think they know best, including myself.

If your house is so phenomenal, don't put your trust in a bunch of lock nerds on a web forum, go hire a security consultant or a professional well trusted locksmith or alarm company in your area and have them install some decent hardware made by known manufacturers who do not sell their product in retail outlets or big box stores. What I mean by that is don't get do it yourself CCTV system from Costco and don't get electronic door locks from Home Depot or Amazon.com.

To Evan's point, yeah if you spend $500 per door on locks alone, and then another grand on some cameras around the outside of the house, that certainly doesn't stop someone from taking a rock to a window and getting in that way. If you're gonna do this, make sure your door isn't some cheap hollow core door with a thin metal skin on it, make sure the hinges and hinge screws aren't short 3/4 inch brass (most of us here have 3 inch screws installed on our doors) and spend money on decent locks vs something like a Schlage "digital" lock with a keypad and Schlage sc1 5 pin override key. But wait there's more, now you have to put Ace security laminate on both sides of each window, put motion sensor lights all around, cut down any bushes or shrubs bad guys could use as a hide, get that fancy alarm system so at least you can be notified when someone breaks in if you aren't home, install a decent 8 camera system for about $3000 (not including labor) but including the network DVR. The list goes on and on.

There will of course be those people here and other place who then go off on a tangent and will tell you that someone can just walk up to your house with a Sawzall and cut a hole in the wall, but honestly how realistic or likely is that sort of burglar attack.

Anyways, look at some professional hardware and professional advice, and be prepared to pay for both.
Squelchtone

[globallockytoo]

I agree with Squelchy's advice.

If interested in wireless access control and money is no object, consider Salto products. You can put whatever mechanical cylinder you want in them. If you decide you want audit trail for keys too, you could consider using Cyberlock by Videx cylinders or even Bilock Mifare embedded chips. (the Bilock Mifare chips will allow for proximity use of keys in Salto door solutions and work in other padlocks and cylinders of choice)

First and foremost you need to secure the frames and glass as already suggested.

[SeattleTexan]

Squelchtone: All due respect, I think you missed the "(wanna be)" part.
My main thing with E/M cores is key control, and being something that would be very difficult to pick/bump/bypass. I am already figuring on reinforcing my door jambs, and I already use 3.5" screws in the hinges and plates.
To answer another question, no, my windows aren't burglar proof yet. I'm intending to replace the windows also, so the debate is buying the widows with security laminate in place, or having a local contractor friend do on site lamination with (I think) the 3M product he uses.
Most of the commercial lock hardware looks just that. Commercial. This is my home, not Fort Knox, not a missle silo, not a bomb bunker. Yes, I want a strong lock, but not something that makes people feel like I'm using my home as a business. I like the Morning Industry hardware because I can get it with a keypad and still tie it into an Insteon system.
As far as CCTV goes, I don't need that many cameras. One strategically placed camera between my kitchen and living room would cover my main vulnerabilities, then one on the driveway, and one in the back.

[gloves]

About the phenomenal house idea...I'd like to point out very cheaply something which may have been overlooked.

Some locks are so good that when properly set, everything else (as pointed out in glass windows) becomes a "weak link", people comprised.
You'd get all the fancy technologic stuff done and end up letting somebody in because he's sticking a gun in your back when you're getting home. Or to begin with you'd attract more unwanted attention by having a showy phenomenal house.

Just a heads up, good luck on your project

[SeattleTexan]

Thanks for the input, Gloves.
Growing up, we had a Napco alarm system, and the company who installed it (some local yokel place I've since forgotten the name of) told us we couldn't use the code we wanted to use, because it began with 89. 89 was the two digit prefix that one would enter if being forced to grant access at gun/knife point. The system would disarm, no lights would flash on the keypad out of the normal status indicators, but it would send a silent signal to the monitoring company to dispatch the police without calling back. Basically a silent panic. I'm installing and programming my alarm system myself for that reason. It's also the reason why I won't have any key fobs tied in like so many home owners do. Yeah, being able to disarm your house as you would your car is convenient, but if someone steals your keys, you're royally {past tense expletive for intercourse}.
I will have a transmitter tied into the panic system only, should I fall off a ladder and break my leg, or wake up to someone jiggling my back door handle. The latter would also be the point that I would be reaching for the 12-gauge, but I figure pump the shot gun, then set off the alarm, the police would have a trail of {expletive term for fecal matter} to follow, at least far enough to get a direction of travel of the trespasser(s).
The undue attention factor is why I want to do this, or at least most of this myself. If people see service vans for a security system installer, then a CCTV contractor, they're going to assume that I have far more value inside my home than I actually do.

[Evan]

@SeattleTexan:

It is sounding more and more like you have something to hide inside your house...
Gold Bullion perhaps ? Rare Stamp/Coin collection maybe ?

First off you won't be able to install and program your own alarm system, that has to be done by the company who will be providing the monitoring services using equipment they provide or designate for their contractor to install so it is compatible with the central monitoring facilities...

Secondly it seems like you are most worried about your neighbors observing which vendors are providing you with services at your home... With security and locksmithing stuff, if you are that paranoid ask the company if they have plain unmarked service vehicles available to do your install work... All of the larger companies have a few trucks that are unmarked for exactly that sort of paranoid fantasy irrational fears which some customers close to losing grip on reality entertain... But those customers bring in money so unmarked service trucks exist to serve them...

~~ Evan

[cledry]

Drill bypasses mortise locks easily and most locks with a bit of knowledge. Drill bypasses window locks quite easily.

Every attack I have seen on laminated windows shows blunt objects being used. Just speculating here because I don't know enough about these laminates. Couldn't it be bypassed easily once the glass is shattered by a sharp knife or something like a reciprocating saw?

[HeadHunterCEO]

response to OP
Check out the alarm lock trilogy networx locks. They're an easy install and the software can accomplish what you stated and then some.

For the cylinder just add into your existing MUl-T-Lock . The current ML offering of conversion cylinders for just about everything on both sides the pond will make your integration easier .

[SeattleTexan]

Hi guys, sorry it's taken me so long to reply.
@Evan I'm actually planning to use a preprogrammed ABN from whatever company I choose, being as the communications is the only thing they really need set up. I have VoIP phone service and cable broadband, and most criminals up here aren't smart enough to figure that out. If it becomes a high crime area, I'll deal with either a shielded hard line, or some form of wireless/cellular backup. A couple of my neighbors are almost always at home, so as long as I have a loud siren, I think it's pretty safe.
And it's not really my neighbors knowing WHO is installing WHAT, it's just if I have an alarm company out, then a CCTV contractor, it's gonna seem like I'm trying to turn my little bitty house into Fort Knox. Am I paranoid? Yeah, I'll admit to that one. But there won't be any armed guard walking the property, or home brew auto tracking laser sighted M-16's, or highly trained Doberman's with killer instinct. Some of my doing this is also to be able to learn in the process of how all this crap goes together, doing it all to code, etc.
I *WISH* I had something of value like you mentioned to hide. All I got is a nice TV that isn't paid off, and a truck that is. Maybe one day I can chage that.

@Cledry This film basically becomes a hard plastic coating over the window glass itself. Blunt force will cause the glass to break, but the film holds it in place, and in the frame. Could it be defeated? Yeah. It's like the addage about building a better mouse trap. You can keep making it stronger and more complicated, but the little bastards are always gonna find a way around it, given enough time. I haven't found any attack demos for this, other than someone with a demolitions bar showing how much force it can withstand after the glass has been shattered.

@HeadHunterCEO Thanks for your suggestion. I'll take a look at those here in the next few minutes.

I do have a question for everyone, regarding Protec Cliq. I saw a video on YouTube of the Cliq electronics being bypassed with a screwdriver, which would allow any *mechanically valid* key to open the lock. Does anyone know if Abloy has corrected this issue in either the Protec Cliq, or Protec2 Cliq? The ability to quickly rekey is the main reason I want the Cliq locks. If it can be that easily broken, then I can't see a reason not to choose the MT5+ Cliq.

[cledry]

Regarding the alarm, I strongly recommend externally mounted strobes to draw attention to which house is being compromised in combination with the siren. A siren can be difficult to determine from whence it emanates, but a flashing light draws immediate attention day or night.

[SeattleTexan]

@Cledry I'm figured I'll need two, with the way everything is laid out: one to be seen from the street, and one to be seen from the alley.
I checked out the AlarmLock Trilogy Networx locks, but they don't seem to have anything with a deadbolt.