Why are some subjects not allowed?

[Lpjs]

Why is the discussion of some methods not allowed (for example, check the post "Most Efficient Way To Pick/Break Lock " below)?

I will certainly follow the rule, I'm just wondering about the reasoning. As long as methods are being used legally (ie in your own home on your own devices), why can't they be learned by all?

Just a curious newbie,

LP

[Squelchtone]

Why is the discussion of some methods not allowed (for example, check the post "Most Efficient Way To Pick/Break Lock " below)?

I will certainly follow the rule, I'm just wondering about the reasoning. As long as methods are being used legally (ie in your own home on your own devices), why can't they be learned by all?

Just a curious newbie,

LP

Because although most people have good intentions and only practice their hobby at home, anyone with internet access can visit this website and learn enough to do some very bad things. We simply cannot openly share with you the best/quickest/quietest way of breaking in any door, how can you not see a problem with that? Would you want the bad guys in your town knowing how to get into every house in your neighborhood as quickly and efficiently and quietly as possible? Probably not.

Same goes for how to break into Coke machines, vending machines, washers and dryers that require coins to operate, dorm room locks, supply closets at the office, roof top access to apartment buildings, how to crack a combination on that old safe I found in my basement etc, etc. This information can easily be used for bad so we do not discuss in the public forums that are easy to find and search using Google or the Search button.

Hope that you find this answer clear and definitive,
Squelchtone

[Lpjs]

Like I said - you will receive no complaints from me and I will certainly follow the rules.

For the sake of argument, though:

To be honest, it wouldn't worry me at all if that information was readily available on these boards for a couple of reasons:

1) Knowledge of weaknesses and flaws helps to make products better and people smarter - Personally, I think that the power of having the information available to the overwhelming majority of good people is greater than the drawbacks of having that knowledge available to the few bad apples.

2) I would assume that all of this "forbidden" knowledge is available elsewhere on the internet. So, yes, it discourages me from spending the time to find it, but I don't think it would discourage the above referenced bad apples at all. If they want to find the methods, they still will.

3) Information posted here can be accompanied by discussion on appropriate uses and guidance for those who might seek to do harm. Information posted elsewhere may not.

Again - not trying to rock the boat here (I do understand the board's reasoning for these rules), I'm just always curious when folks decide to hide knowledge.

Thank you for your response!

LP

[Squelchtone]

Again - not trying to rock the boat here (I do understand the board's reasoning for these rules), I'm just always curious when folks decide to hide knowledge.

Nobody is hiding it, you can stick around and be a contributing member to the forum, and after just 40 posts and 90 days here, you too can apply and if voted in, based on the quality of your posts and how well you get along with others, you will have full run of all the information in the public and advanced forums.

What we do is stop people who need an answer RIGHT NOW about how to get into a specific type of lock, which is usually not their lock, or they don't want to pay for a locksmith, or they're up to no good, or whatever excuse they have for needing info on how to get past a particular lock, door, or safe.

I'm not really interested in a devil's advocate discussion however. I'm all about free information, and I dont like the old school locksmith guild mentality of keeping absolutely every last detail a secret, but you're living in a very idealistic world if you don't think that at least some of this info should be somewhat guarded. I'm sure it's all out there on the internet somewhere, and so are plans for the atomic bomb, but we have certain social responsibilities to make sure this information is not misused because we want to make this a fun and rewarding hobby and not just a training camp for bad guys. It's already bad enough that when we mention this hobby to people, their first response is usually "oh, so you're learning how to break into places?"

I also have to say I disagree with your notion of putting sensitive information here as long as it has a disclaimer of some sort saying something like "here's how to break into a Mosler safe, but remember, this is for information only, don't do anything illegal with these instructions" cmon.. that's ridiculous and would not make sense to do something like that here.

Perhaps others will chime in and give you other answers, but let me remind everyone that questioning the forum rules is not in your best interest. This is not a democracy, it is a private system and the owner makes rules as he sees fit, if a member here is not satisfied with the amount of information available to them based on how entitled they feel to this information or whatever sore feelings they have because they were not let into some secret boys club Advanced area, then they are free to leave.

Squelchtone

[MacGyver101]

I'm just always curious when folks decide to hide knowledge.

Well, I think it's really important to differentiate between actively trying to hide knowledge (which we don't do), and saying "I don't want to discuss some things with you until I know you a bit more" (which is what we do).

The requirements for access to the non-public "advanced" forums aren't that rigorous: we just ask that people make a few posts, and hang around here for a while. After that, there's plenty of opportunity to discuss weaknesses and flaws of high(er)-security locks.

2) I would assume that all of this "forbidden" knowledge is available elsewhere on the internet. So, yes, it discourages me from spending the time to find it, but I don't think it would discourage the above referenced bad apples at all. If they want to find the methods, they still will.

Again, it's not "forbidden knowledge"... it's just knowledge that, in some cases, could be misused in ways that we would prefer it wasn't. You're looking at it from the standpoint of "I have the right to have that information", and many people here are looking at it from the standpoint of "I'd prefer not to have all of my conversations made public and indexed by Google". If someone else on some other website doesn't care, and wants to post things with fewer restrictions, that's fine too... but we'd still like a place that's a bit more private for some conversations. I'm a member on various lock-related forums -- and, with very few exceptions, they all have some "members only" discussion groups, and places they draw the line. (Of the four lock-related forums that I'm active on, the only one that doesn't have a "restricted" section is a forum that's dedicated entirely to antique locks -- but they only discuss lock construction, and have strict rules against posting things like safe drill points or bypass techniques.)

What it comes down to is that you're welcome to have that information -- and people here will happy share their thoughts and tips with you -- but, in some cases, for some topics, we'd like to get to know you a bit better before we answer all of your questions.

I don't think that's entirely unreasonable as a stance... but I understand that it feels like it's flying in the face of the excitement you feel when you're getting into a new hobby. I remember how I felt when my first application for the Advanced forums got lost somewhere in a server glitch, and I had to wait another few weeks for the next round of moderator review: I remember it feeling very unfair at the time.

[Squelchtone]

Mac has already linked a new user to this post, and now I will link you to the answer of why not everything is available to everyone from the moment they visit this forum. Posted just a few minutes ago: http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=54693

Squelchtone

[Lpjs]

It seems as though I've ruffled some feathers. I want to assure you that this was not, and is not, my intention.

I stand by what I said above (I truly do believe that the overwhelming majority of people in this world are good folks). That said, I also understand that this is a private board and that the moderator can create and enforce whatever rules they deem necessary appropriate.

I have no intentions of trying to change anybody's mind; rather, whenever I join a new community, I find it important to discover the issues and concerns that are relevant to that community and try to understand those concerns, even if they are different than my own.

No disrespect was intended,

LP

[Squelchtone]

It seems as though I've ruffled some feathers. I want to assure you that this was not, and is not, my intention.

I stand by what I said above (I truly do believe that the overwhelming majority of people in this world are good folks). That said, I also understand that this is a private board and that the moderator can create and enforce whatever rules they deem necessary appropriate.

I have no intentions of trying to change anybody's mind; rather, whenever I join a new community, I find it important to discover the issues and concerns that are relevant to that community and try to understand those concerns, even if they are different than my own.

No disrespect was intended,

LP

I guess I'm just old fashioned and find it rude to come into someone's house as a guest and tell them that they have ugly wallpaper or their furniture is not well arranged, or that you are baffled they ask you to take your shoes off so you don't track mud, or while at dinner at their house to tell them their cooking sucks.

You're a new guest here, please try to exercise some tact and manners and be polite instead of questioning everything.

I hope my analogy is succinct.

Squelchtone

[Legion303]

Why is the discussion of some methods not allowed (for example, check the post "Most Efficient Way To Pick/Break Lock " below)?

I answered this question in that very thread when I locked it. To answer your other question regarding whether the same info might be publicly available elsewhere online: some of it is and some of it isn't, but this site's owner doesn't want to deal with liability issues regardless.

-steve

[Lpjs]

Squelch:

I guess I'm a bit confused by your analogy.

As I've mentioned twice now, I was never questioning things (at least not in the sense of "why are things this way, change them now"). I was just curious.

I never demanded (or even requested) that anything be changed. That is not my place or my right and I know it.

So, again, I apologize. Your wallpaper is lovely.

LP