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Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
Forum rules
Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

The sub forum you are currently in is for asking Beginner Hobby Lock Picking questions only.

Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Postby Lpjs » 31 Jan 2012 10:37

So: My picks (SO 14) and first lock (Master Lock #3) arrived.

I spent about 90 minutes with them yesterday and could use some advice.

I opened the lock 4-5 times - but I think those were mostly luck.

I seem to be able to consistently pick three pins (I think... I'm basing this on three seperate "clicks" when I slowly release the tension), but rarely seem to be able to get the fourth pin. I get different pins (as expected) depending on the direction I apply pressure with the wrench, but 90% it seems to be three...

For what its worth, I also spent about 45 minutes trying to rake the lock and got it once. I seem to get a lot close with individual picking.

Any hints?
Lpjs
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Jan 2012 21:56

Re: Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Postby gloves » 31 Jan 2012 11:42

First of all, good choice on your first lock.

You'd have bought any brand, but I feel like I won't be the only one saying that an easy lock like master lock #3 :)
Locks of this kind usually get more difficult to pick if they're heavily used, rusted, or corroded.

As you point out your issue being in that pesky fourth pin, I ask: without applying any tension, can you count how many pins are in there, with a hook pick?

If you can, you're a step ahead. If you can't most of the times or at all, I suggest practicing more and more until you can get a good feeling of what you're manipulating with your pick. Also try to vary tension, you may be applying too much and that fourth pin may be stuck too hard to be sensed, or again your hook has too little curvature and you're forcing two pins at the same time (though this last hypothesis seems unlikely).

About raking, start slowly and build up tension as needed. If you're using a half diamond pick, try less than straight trajectories, up toward the pins. Start from the bottom of the keyway and then proceed upper until pins are set correctly. Again it's all about feeling.

If you didn't already, you may find useful reviewing some articles in the FAQs and general information section.

Have fun :wink:
gloves
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 4 Jun 2010 14:42

Re: Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Postby Lpjs » 31 Jan 2012 11:49

I appreciate the above. I feel somewhat comfortable in counting each pick - but I would say I am far from proficient. I will work on those exercises tonight.

As for tension -- I keep reading that tension should be firm, but light. I'm having a bit of trouble determining exactly what that means, though. I think I may need to find an expert (in person) that can show me what that feels like.

For raking - I've been using what was described to me as a "standard rake" (the squiggly line)... Think I'd have better luck with a half diamond?

The lock is brand new out of the box, by the way - no rust or corrosion. I also ordered a Kwikset Single Cylinder Deadbolt (96600-538) - though it has not yet arrived.

LP
Lpjs
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Jan 2012 21:56

Re: Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Postby gloves » 31 Jan 2012 16:01

Lpjs wrote:As for tension -- I keep reading that tension should be firm, but light. I'm having a bit of trouble determining exactly what that means, though. I think I may need to find an expert (in person) that can show me what that feels like.


Surely it'd help, though many of us didn't have the luck to meet somebody to teach us in person, yet achieved valid results.
A personal thought of mine is that at first, while confronting a physically tough, big bad lock, we think that X tension is valid if not too little for manipulating such a strong chunk of metal. Yet you'll later find out that if the mechanism works fine, an infinitely smaller tension is enough and anything more than that is an obstacle to feeling and setting pins correctly.

I also understand the problem of too much, too little being far from scientifical. We've all been there. Measuring your tensor length, putting a dent on its end to hang a small weight and work with the lock flat to the ground would make a scientifical method to measure torque, since Momentum = Force x arm and this would give you a number to look after and a modern approach, though such torque would vary from lock to lock. I've never bothered with measuring necessary torque to manipulate locks, though if you ask me an eye-estimation, I'd say 20 grams applied at the end of a 6 cm tensor, thus 0.001 Nm torque.

Lpjs wrote:For raking - I've been using what was described to me as a "standard rake" (the squiggly line)... Think I'd have better luck with a half diamond?


That squiggly line you're referring to should be a bogota rake :) It is a more complex raking pick than the half diamond, and due to its design it may be tickling more than 1 pin at the same time (or again they're just stuck with too much tension). I'd suggest trying the half diamond, not just because I think it is one of the most versatile picks, but also because it gives you more selective control and you can easily make one yourself.
gloves
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 4 Jun 2010 14:42

Re: Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Postby Lpjs » 31 Jan 2012 19:26

I think I *may* have discovered my issue. After some practice, I feel fairly confident that I am hitting all the pins (both through feel, audible "click", and through the four distinct "clicks" I hear when slowly releasing tension. Still no open (most of the time).

Based on the above, I wonder if I'm actually pushing the pins too far and binding the bottom pin... Any suggestions on either avoiding this? If this is the case, am I just pushing the pin too hard?

LP
Lpjs
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Jan 2012 21:56

Re: Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Postby gloves » 31 Jan 2012 19:43

Lpjs wrote:I think I *may* have discovered my issue. After some practice, I feel fairly confident that I am hitting all the pins (both through feel, audible "click", and through the four distinct "clicks" I hear when slowly releasing tension. Still no open (most of the time).

Based on the above, I wonder if I'm actually pushing the pins too far and binding the bottom pin... Any suggestions on either avoiding this? If this is the case, am I just pushing the pin too hard?

LP


It'd be what you said, or you may be putting too much tension and blocking pins before their true set. Practice is the key and the only way you can improve skills and feeling, stick at it :wink:
Getting a cutaway lock may help because you see what is inside, but it's more a choice of yours. :)
gloves
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 4 Jun 2010 14:42

Re: Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Postby Lpjs » 31 Jan 2012 19:56

Any recommendations for a brand/model of first cutaway lock? I've seen several - it seems like mostly three pin or 5 pin kwikset or schlage (at least where I've been looking)... Any thoughts?
Lpjs
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Jan 2012 21:56

Re: Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Postby gloves » 31 Jan 2012 20:11

Lpjs wrote:Any recommendations for a brand/model of first cutaway lock? I've seen several - it seems like mostly three pin or 5 pin kwikset or schlage (at least where I've been looking)... Any thoughts?


Any pin-tumbler, really. Since it's a cutaway you can see what you're doing. A 5 pin would be a lil' more durable than a 3 pin which would get you bored soon. Also one with spool pins would be nice to advance more. Or get one which can be repinned so you can change its configuration from time to time.

Again nothing beats practice, so as simple and expected as it may sound, practice practice practice :)

And of course have fun, too. :D
gloves
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 4 Jun 2010 14:42

Re: Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Postby Lpjs » 31 Jan 2012 20:17

I'm looking at the Kwikset Cutaway Mortise Cylinder - RH on lockpickshop.com (though I'm not entirely sure why I would care if the cutaway is on the left or the right).

I'm basing this on nothing other than the fact that the practice deadbolt I have is also a kwikset.
Lpjs
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Jan 2012 21:56

Re: Advice/resources for a newbie on a Master Lock #3

Postby Bladen » 3 Feb 2012 7:13

This link helped me a bunch.

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54283&p=394917&hilit=speed+bump#p394917

I think you might like it.

This way you'll know what pin is binding and what order to pick them in.
If I had to make a guess I'd think you might be over setting a pin or two.

The side of the cutaway lock only depends on what hand you hold it in or what side of a vice would be the most comfortable for you to look at.
We tend to lean a bit to one side or another.

Hope that helps a bit.
Bladen
 
Posts: 27
Joined: 23 Dec 2011 14:55
Location: Northern MN.


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