The Perfect Lock Can It Be Picked?

[gloves]

a. I suspect that a lock that doesn't work due to lack of the necessary tolerances required for it to function properly would not be described as a perfect lock. I would think that a perfect would not only work but work perfectly. But that is beside the point here and we'll go to b.

That concept of a perfect lock also working perfectly doesn't fit in it's needed "perfect machining" without tolerances (which would make it imperfect). Again that's my thought when talking of perfect lock so now that you expressed your I can see why we didn't agree, we've got two opposite ideas of what a perfect lock is.

b. Locks work and don't work due to tolerances. Yesterday I worked on a Diebold safe lock where the dial ring had bowed (some sort of plastic) to the point of restricting dial movement and the wheels in the lock were rubbing against each other. So in that situation you had both increasing and decreasing tolerances, both of which led to a poor working lock.

I may partially agree on this, though I think we were talking about pin tumblers and locks on which SPP can be applied on. Again we'd discuss that there still was some looseness or room for it to rotate even if rubbing against, otherwise it's friction would have been too much for it to work.

And your video of you wearing gloves opening a padlock is just sick.

This leaves me puzzled. I don't see which relevancy has my video in this discussion. Didn't want to offend anyone either.

Cheers

[3-in-1]

Gloves, you are correct. My opinion of your video was in poor taste and a bad joke. And should not have not been included here. i apologize for that. Moving on to c. This is where my original post was hoping to get to. Capitalizing on the machining differences and tolerances is what SPP is all about. This holds true for lever locks and combination locks as well. My inclusion of metal deformation was brought into the discussion because I think it comes into play more and more as the lock approaches perfection. I believe that the pressure required on the tension wrench goes up as the lock is improved. My only actual study of this was in the picking of an 8 lever lock without false gating. In principal the exact same thing is going on as with SPP. Only by continuing to increase the pressure beyond what I was used to, could I begin to get the levers to bind and stay. Many would not reach the gating point and had to be worked up a little at a time. Have you seen the required pressure to pick some locks needing to be considerably higher than normal? When I used to pick pin locks regularly I never studied this.

So as the number of pins that bind simultaneously goes up, the torque must go up because the force is now being spread out across a greater surface area. This is where the lever lock analogy could be very different because each lever can be filed to be shorter at and near the gate. Low torque doesn't allow for a pin to set because the plug doesn't rotate sufficiently. Which it can't due to the other binding pins preventing rotation. Make sense?

[unjust]

since we're getting into the absurd theoretical, think of this on a ultra precision scale.

keep in mind that functionally you're exploiting 5 radial levers against 5 different radial surfaces, each of which must be perfectly columnar and parallel. even then, with an absurdly small amount of lubricant will be needed to keep the pins from cold welding to the core and bible. that lubricant , in order to work, must be displace-able, which means that the lock can be exploited as you still have a variable gap.

further if the material of the lock is not infinitely hard, twisting it w/o the key in will wear the parts also allowing for an exploit.

[3-in-1]

Yes, a lock made of typical lock materials. And sufficient pin chamber tolerance to allow for proper pin movement. Since everything is machined and aligned "perfectly" all necessary tolerances will be quite small, beyond what are normally found in pin locks. I am not arguing on your point about lube, I am just trying to get this model well defined since there seems to be a struggle understanding what the goal is. I have never studied pin tumbler picking in any depth but did pick locks for over 15 years as a locksmith, with reasonably good results. It has been only recently that I have found there is intense study on the subject with some people becoming very good at picking just about everything out there. So that is what this all about. Taking the lock to its limits and seeing if it can be SPP. Or more importantly what would be required. i am not ruling out the use of a contact mike or other devices to aid in the challenge.

So I guess the point is all the lock tolerances are beyond (smaller) than those typically found in locks and beyond what pickers are normally faced with. I just finished reading the MIT study where there is discussion of pin deformation. I hadn't thought about pin bending. But I had considered deformation of the core and cylinder at the shear line.

[Legion303]

So if I have this right, your question boils down to "can a good lock with tolerance errors be picked?"

The answer is yes.

-steve

[3-in-1]

Why is this so tough? I will repeat myself again. This is not so much a yes or no question. It is intended to analyze what possible methods could be used on locks that are brought to the closest possible tolerances and still function properly. A couple of you seem to get what I am talking about here. It is more a question of how the lock can be picked by the SPP method. I am looking for ideas here.

Maybe I should approach this another way. Have any of you been unable to SPP a lock where NO "security" pins are used and you have clear access to all the pins. Why do do you think that is?

[FarmerFreak]

Have any of you been unable to SPP a lock where NO "security" pins are used and you have clear access to all the pins.

I SPP everything. A standard pin tumbler lock with no security pins, no false shear lines, and clear access to all the pins without some insane 9,0 combination in the back=me always being able to SPP that lock.

Why do do you think that is?

This should be clear by now, but here goes. If a standard pin tumbler lock with clear access to all the pins has tight enough tolerances that it can't be picked, then it isn't going to be functional. If the lock is functional, it can be SPP'ed. There are reasons for this which have been explained in my posts and others.

FYI, A lot of people have great difficulty SPP'ing locks with any consistency. That by itself doesn't mean anything to me and the other people that have spent the time to become skilled enough to SPP everything!! And the reality is, if you run into a lock that you have easy access to all the pins, zero security pins. No false shearlines, it's just a regular pin tumbler lock. And you still can't SPP pick it, that doesn't mean that that lock can't be SPP'ed. It just means that you need to ship it to me so I can pick it.

[Evan]

It just means that you need to ship it to me so I can pick it.

One of these days someone is going to modify a cylinder so it can be tensioned but not turn once picked :-p

They will send it to you expecting you to be able to pick it open :-O

~~ Evan

[FarmerFreak]

One of these days someone is going to modify a cylinder so it can be tensioned but not turn once picked :-p

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're still saying that I can still pick it! Whether it turns and or opens is a different matter.

Generally speaking if a lock is made as a challenge, it needs to have a functional key. Nobody needs to see the key prior to picking, but it needs the key anyways. If it has a functional key, then picking it in such a way to get it to do what the key does is important. Obviously if the lock doesn't have a key and doesn't work properly, it can't be expected to have it magically work by picking.

Oh, and while we are getting off topic. Here are a few locks that I haven't been able to pick open.
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv59 ... 5/1-53.png
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv59 ... CN3425.jpg

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv59 ... 5/1-41.jpg
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv59 ... 5/2-22.jpg
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv59 ... 25/4-6.jpg

Those are both locks that I have modded. I do welcome challenges. Though all you've got to do to beat me is hand me an Abloy...

[Evan]

Oh, and while we are getting off topic. Here are a few locks that I haven't been able to pick open.
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv59 ... 5/1-53.png
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv59 ... CN3425.jpg

@FarmerFreak:

What kind of Frankenstein-American Lock is that ?

Wouldn't you need special picks that are quite a bit longer than normal to even make an attempt at picking that monster (with a face only mother could love) lock ?

~~ Evan

[3-in-1]

FarmerFreak, I appreciate the input. But it sounds like you are basing your opinion on your past experience of all the locks you have picked so far. Which by the way, what lock has the tightest tolerances that you know of? I am not sure of that relationship of key functionality in a lock and the ability to SPP. Obviously both situations require tolerances, but as the key does not have get the pins to hang up or "set" under an applied torque, they are not necessarily the same. Another obvious fact, at least to me, is that as the tolerances grow tighter the lock gets tougher to pick. Wouldn't you agree? Have you ever found a lock where all 5 pins would bind? And for all of you who are convinced a perfect lock wouldn't work, my perfect lock has perfect tolerances. All machines work because they have tolerances. They tend to not work so well when they have tolerance "errors"

[FarmerFreak]

First you compliment me for thinking outside the box and then criticize me for using my knowledge and experience. I have no problem thinking outside of the box, I just have to keep in within the world of reason as I see and know it.

Which by the way, what lock has the tightest tolerances that you know of?

I'd say an Assa lock. Assa twins are very difficult to pick, but that has more to do with the security pins in them then their tight tolerances.

Another obvious fact, at least to me, is that as the tolerances grow tighter the lock gets tougher to pick. Wouldn't you agree?

No I wouldn't agree. And it isn't because I'm trying to take the opposite side of the argument either. Look, a brand new lock with supposedly really tight tolerances is always easier for me to pick than a really old worn out one. And a really old worn out lock has looser tolerances. Wouldn't you agree?

Have you ever found a lock where all 5 pins would bind?

No, to my knowledge I have never found a lock where 5 or more pins bound up at the same time. Have you?

[Legion303]

Why is this so tough? I will repeat myself again. This is not so much a yes or no question. It is intended to analyze what possible methods could be used on locks that are brought to the closest possible tolerances and still function properly. A couple of you seem to get what I am talking about here. It is more a question of how the lock can be picked by the SPP method. I am looking for ideas here.

I'm also wondering why this is so tough. The SPP method is the same for any other lock with tolerance errors.

All machines work because they have tolerances. They tend to not work so well when they have tolerance "errors"

You don't seem to understand what tolerance errors are. Look, you can't speculate about a "perfect lock" and then start talking about physical deformations without accepting that other people are going to introduce real-world physical information to your scenario as well. Either you accept that and accept the correct answers, or you accept the correct answer that was given to you in the very first response.

-steve

PS: I cleaned up your multiple posts. Stop doing that.

[ckc123]

In short.. my answer is yes.. the perfect lock CANNOT be picked.. here is my reasoning..

1) The perfect lock would not be based on a "pin" system
2) the perfect lock would not have any physical access to any internal parts
3) The perfect lock would be electronic (assuming you could solver certain aspects of electricity..and poser failures.. long term batteries etc)
4) The lock would contain typical electronic counter measures.. eg., longer "wait times" for each incorrect attempt.

Now.. the lock could contain flaws that you could use to bypass it (more likely then picking it).. and I may be wrong in my statements, but thats the way that I would approach it..

[3-in-1]

FarmerFreak, you obviously have spent a lot of time picking locks and that is why I appreciate your input. I have also spent a lot of time picking locks but my serious study of them has been on lever and combination locks, not pin locks. The fact that I may not agree with you should not be taken as criticism, just disagreement. Why do you think it is that picking worn locks is more difficult? I find that to be quite surprising. There are a few cases where I have seen that on locks in general but not found that to be the rule. And Legion, which correct answer should I accept? So far, Femerat says no it can't be picked and FarmerFreak says yes it can.