Books for identifying locks

[Assembly]

Hello all,

I was wondering if there was a book that contained pictures of different manufacturers' locks along with information like key blank number or if there was something that just contained different pictures along with model number of various residential/commercial manufacturers locks. If there is nothing like this in a single source, is it possible to call a manufacturer and request information like this? If so, what would I ask for?

Thanks,
Assembly

[Squelchtone]

Tell us what the main goal is of having such a book, maybe we can help you better that way. For most of us 5 years in this hobby is enough to make our own mental book. I can walk into a store or restaurant, look at their front door lock and tell you much more about it than any book or manufacturer's cut sheet ever could.

Squelchtone

[Assembly]

Tell us what the main goal is of having such a book, maybe we can help you better that way. For most of us 5 years in this hobby is enough to make our own mental book. I can walk into a store or restaurant, look at their front door lock and tell you much more about it than any book or manufacturer's cut sheet ever could.

Squelchtone

The goal of the book would be to identify different locks by sight without needing the 5 years of experience for the beginner. As the user gained more experience, it would allow them to provide basic services such as key cutting to customers and would act as a reference guide for locks that were unfamiliar to the user.

The closest thing I can think of what I'm looking for is something like AutoSmart but for commercial and residential locks. The pictures could allow the user to identify the lock (especially if the lock was unmarked) and the manufacturer. The user could then look up any additional information that may be needed to complete the job.

[MrScruff]

Not exactly a book but have you checked out LockWiki?

The advantage there is that you or anyone else can add information as you learn it and improve the resource for everyone.

[datagram]

Not exactly a book but have you checked out LockWiki?

The advantage there is that you or anyone else can add information as you learn it and improve the resource for everyone.

LockWiki's Lock Page is a good place to start.

Full disclosure: I run Lockwiki. People have asked about a lock or key identification page, but I have not really thought of a good way to do it. If anyone has any suggestions let me know!

dg

[cmaltzan]

Not exactly a book but have you checked out LockWiki?

The advantage there is that you or anyone else can add information as you learn it and improve the resource for everyone.

LockWiki's Lock Page is a good place to start.

Full disclosure: I run Lockwiki. People have asked about a lock or key identification page, but I have not really thought of a good way to do it. If anyone has any suggestions let me know!

dg

Yeah I was just thinking about this actually. A fairly simple computer program could do it for you. It could even be written in python (a very easy to learn scripting language). The hard part would be pooling the information together, but the coding would be easy enough.

The way I would envision it running would be that the database allows a user to input information. So the user would indicate the size of the plug, words or letters written on it, number of pins, number of 90 degree angles in the shape of the key way and anything else that you can think of that would make searching for the lock easy to do and then upload a picture as well.

Stage two would be creating a drop down menu that has all of the different features put in so far and the program would then DISQUALIFY locks from the list of possible pictures that come up. Disqualification is much better for this because our descriptions of the locks would be very concrete (as opposed to a search engine with user input search words which might not even be correct to begin with). 3 outcomes: Picture comes up, we did a bad job in our descriptions of lock features and the user messed it up, or the lock is not in the system.

Maybe a bit idealistic, but it would be a great resource for people new to locksport.

[MrScruff]

That's a really interesting concept, kind of similar to shopping for computer parts. I especially love the "number of 90 degree angles in the shape of the key way" bit, it would provide some really neat grouping options. Do you imagine showing the user everything and shaving items off the list as they go or would it not show anything until the user gives some indication of what they're looking for as as not to tax the server as much?

And if we're talking databases and locksport anyway, what I'd really like to see is some kind of numeric challenge rating for locks based on a number of factors such as number of pins, type and quantity of security pins, shape of key way, side bars, etc. A program could automatically generate a number, say between 0 (single pin) and 100 (need to borrow Batman's utility belt to pick it), based on those parameters. The biggest challenge would be inventing the rating system in the first place, though I think you'd sidestep a lot of the "what should I pick" questions by establishing some kind of hierarchy.

[cmaltzan]

haha I completely agree!

I do a lot of 3D computer animation and there is a website I use for downloading the newest versions of the software I use that are still in beta. The website is called graphicall.org. There is a search engine that lets you sift through all of the different versions. I modeled my idea for the lock search engine off that one. It lets you click the icons indicating whether you have a windows computer or linux etc and then it just takes out all of the files that don't apply.

I thought this would work best because the user would see the pictures of the locks and once they narrow it down to just a couple of locks, they should be able to just find it based on the picture alone

[Evan]

Yeah I was just thinking about this actually. A fairly simple computer program could do it for you. It could even be written in python (a very easy to learn scripting language). The hard part would be pooling the information together, but the coding would be easy enough.

The way I would envision it running would be that the database allows a user to input information. So the user would indicate the size of the plug, words or letters written on it, number of pins, number of 90 degree angles in the shape of the key way and anything else that you can think of that would make searching for the lock easy to do and then upload a picture as well.

Stage two would be creating a drop down menu that has all of the different features put in so far and the program would then DISQUALIFY locks from the list of possible pictures that come up. Disqualification is much better for this because our descriptions of the locks would be very concrete (as opposed to a search engine with user input search words which might not even be correct to begin with). 3 outcomes: Picture comes up, we did a bad job in our descriptions of lock features and the user messed it up, or the lock is not in the system.

Maybe a bit idealistic, but it would be a great resource for people new to locksport.

@cmaltzan:

Umm, what you ask is not only unnecessary it isn't feasible...

Sounds to me like you need about 10 pages worth of a key blank directory with a photo of an example lock in each keyway...

But with the common keyways you might not be able to tell just who made the lock/cylinder if it is not marked... Not every lock using the SC1 keyway is made by Schlage... Lots of the 3rd party knock off locks use that keyway, Arrow makes SC1 keyway cylinders for its products and Ilco makes after-market solid brass mortise and rim cylinders with that keyway...

~~ Evan

[datagram]

What was described is entirely in the realm of possibility, but not what I had in mind. I don't want to make a page where you identify a specific model/brand of lock, I want a page where you determine what kind of lock you have. This is a common question on all forums; "what type of lock is this?" "what type of key is this?". I was going to make a page with common characteristics of...dimple locks, for example, which lists the basic things found on dimple keys and locks. In any event, the answer to 99% of these questions is dimple, disc-detainer, or warded : )

dg

[cmaltzan]

Yeah I was just thinking about this actually. A fairly simple computer program could do it for you. It could even be written in python (a very easy to learn scripting language). The hard part would be pooling the information together, but the coding would be easy enough.

The way I would envision it running would be that the database allows a user to input information. So the user would indicate the size of the plug, words or letters written on it, number of pins, number of 90 degree angles in the shape of the way and anything else that you can think of that would make searching for the lock easy to do and then upload a picture as well.

Stage two would be creating a drop down menu that has all of the different features put in so far and the program would then DISQUALIFY locks from the list of possible pictures that come up. Disqualification is much better for this because our descriptions of the locks would be very concrete (as opposed to a search engine with user input search words which might not even be correct to begin with). 3 outcomes: Picture comes up, we did a bad job in our descriptions of lock features and the user messed it up, or the lock is not in the system.

Maybe a bit idealistic, but it would be a great resource for people new to locksport.

@cmaltzan:

Umm, what you ask is not only unnecessary it isn't feasible...

Sounds to me like you need about 10 pages worth of a key blank directory with a photo of an example lock in each keyway...

But with the common keyways you might not be able to tell just who made the lock/cylinder if it is not marked... Not every lock using the SC1 keyway is made by Schlage... Lots of the 3rd party knock off locks use that keyway, Arrow makes SC1 keyway cylinders for its products and Ilco makes after-market solid brass mortise and rim cylinders with that keyway...

~~ Evan

If it is possible for a locksmith to pick up a lock and determine what kind of lock it is, then it is also possible for a computer program to do it as well once you give it enough information... If its an unmarked lock that even a professional locksmith cant identify, its not really a weakness that a computer program can't do it either. However, given a program that disqualifies locks from a database, with whatever information you are able to put in (even if its not enough to determine the specific lock) you would still be left with a shorter list of possibilities.

[Evan]

If it is possible for a locksmith to pick up a lock and determine what kind of lock it is, then it is also possible for a computer program to do it as well once you give it enough information... If its an unmarked lock that even a professional locksmith cant identify, its not really a weakness that a computer program can't do it either. However, given a program that disqualifies locks from a database, with whatever information you are able to put in (even if its not enough to determine the specific lock) you would still be left with a shorter list of possibilities.

@cmaltzan:

The biggest problem with what you are discussing doing is that you are only going to be accessing between 33%-50% of the keyways of locks that exist which are open to and a part of the public repository of known information about locks... So you will be disqualifying a lock based on knowing less than half of the possible keyways that exist... That doesn't sound like something that is reliable, feasible nor worthy of investing too much time into...

While your program would be great at discerning the difference between the commonly available keyways such as SC1, KW1, etc, it would be entirely useless at doing anything more than that as it would never be able to be a complete database until you have examined an exemplar lock of every manufacturer, type and keyway in use in the desired market area where you wish the program to be useful and entered all of that information into the database your program/script would be querying...

That is why I said all you need is about 10 pages worth of a key blank directory with some example photos of each type of lock...

~~ Evan

[cmaltzan]

Okay I get what your saying now, but I still don't think its a problem.

Anything contained within a ten page document can be put into the database. In addition to this, the programs "lock library" can always be updated in order to keep up with the times. If an experienced locksmith comes across a brand new lock never seen before, chances are it wouldn't be in the library. So anyone using the program would either enter the parameters and find that no lock meets the exact description (also using the pictures that come up as part of the results to help make that determination) or make an incorrect decision that one of the locks fit the parameters when in reality it was not the same lock.

Even in the case of a false-positive, the lock would have all of the same features (assuming the user input information correctly) down to the number of pins, type of security features, shape of keyway, inscription, etc. so the only thing making it a false-positive would really just be that its a knock off brand.

All software dealing with a type of product needs to be updated/patched. This would be no different. The program could be as good as anyone cares to make it. The best way to make an open source software like this work is having many different people help to contribute the information after the initial database is set up. If the locksport community wanted it to happen badly enough, it could include every lock known to the locksport community.

[cmaltzan]

Disqualifying a lock doesn't require any knowledge of the rest of the locks out there in the world. If the lock in question has a single keyway and has a round plug, all locks with more than one keyway can be disqualified. So can locks with square plugs. The only real problem, outside of user mistakes, is if the lock in question is not in the library. If people like using the program enough, they should give back and identify the lock and add it to the lock library.

[rphillips52]

In Britain, there are several databases, some of them privately published in book form, for identifying locks. Mostly they are for lever mortice locks to be identified by the limited view of the keyhole.

Certainly, it is difficult to organise the disparate forms of locks, but zoologists and botanists have long had 'keys' for identifying animals and plants. A sequence of questions elimates progressively more species, leading to possible identification.
On this forum, for example, someone asked about a lock with a bulleted disk at the front which turns freely. He assumed it to be a simple warded padlock. Actually it was a copy of the Abloy disc detainer lock.
There are eg several variations on the Bramah principle, which can be difficult to identify specifically. But they can all be distinguished from a cruciform pin tumbler lock, or a dimple pin tumbler.
There are many strange and uncommon locks about, which were not successful in the market place; some of them will not appear in a database at first, but over time with contributions from interested parties, such a database could grow in usefulness.
Btw, the UK ones are commercial and sold to locksmiths. But if you have an iPhone you can see the idea in a small sample - there is an app for £1. However, it doesn't include (from memory, I don't have it) drill points and picking method details.