Yale lock - is the hole always in the same place?

[Andy83]

Hi guys,

I'm renting a flat and I noticed that locks are not in a great condition. I was thinking about replacing old Yale lock with Yale PBS1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/PBS1-British-St ... 915&sr=8-1). The old lock is the simplest rim Yale (probably 10 years old or so) and I would happily remove it and replace it with Yale PBS1 but would the hole drilled for the old one be the same ? I'm only concerned with the hole in the door not any screw position differences. After tenancy I would just replace it back that's why it's important for me to be compatible without drilling a new holes.

Thanks
Andy

[mhole]

The overwhelming majority of cylinder rim locks in the UK use a 32mm hole, centered either 40mm or 60mm from the edge of the door.

The Yale PBS 1 will fit the 32mm hole drilled for a standard 60mm nightlatch. If you have a narrow stile (40mm) nightlatch you will need a PBS 2. However, both of these will require significant alterations to your door to fit, including drilling extra holes in the door for the thru-fixings which hole the cylinder cowl in place, and chiseling a rebate in the edge of the door.

OK for a pro or advanced DIY'er, not OK if you're hoping for an easy swap with no woodworking.

[Evan]

@Andy83:

How about asking your landlord to arrange the lock upgrade at your expense... Since it is not your door (you are a renter) you do not have lawful control over modifying it and could be charged for a replacement door when you move out if you make any changes to it that are not explicitly allowed for in your lease agreement... Just like you can't go ripping out the bathroom fixtures if you don't like them...

Besides the fact that your landlord would have every right to drill and replace your added lock to gain access for repairs or any required inspections if you don't provide him/her/them with a copy of the key anyway...

It is always better when dealing with landlords to offer to upgrade the facilities with the landlord's permission using a vendor the landlord selects -- your landlord might even appreciate your concerns about making the unit a better safer place to live...

~~ Evan

[mhole]

Evan, whilst what you say may be true in the US, it is not the case in the UK, where the original poster is located.

In the UK landlords have a right of access to a property, but only with the tenant in attendance, and after giving at least 24 hours notice. There is no legal entitlement to a copy of the key, and no legal right to access the property when the residents are not there. Some tenants may opt to provide the landlord with as key for convenience, but many prefer not to, to maintain their privacy.

I would ask the landlord to approve your propsed changes, and maybe even see if they will fund them. They're unlikely to be bothered if you improve security, but may object if they dislike the look of the new locks. If in doubt ask first.

[Evan]

In the UK landlords have a right of access to a property, but only with the tenant in attendance, and after giving at least 24 hours notice. There is no legal entitlement to a copy of the key, and no legal right to access the property when the residents are not there. Some tenants may opt to provide the landlord with as key for convenience, but many prefer not to, to maintain their privacy.

I'll agree that there are some differences in the legal precedent, however 24 hours notice and having the tenant in attendance are things that can more often than not bite a tenant in the butt, especially when water is leaking onto all their stuff because someone in the building isn't home to let the landlord in to stop the leak...

I would be willing to bet that as the responsible party to the local safety inspectors and fire service there are many reasons and authorizations for landlords whom are the legally responsible party(s) who have to ensure that the building is safe and up to code requirements to enter whenever they have to in order to properly maintain their buildings... Or do tenants in the UK assume all the legal risks (including insurance for damages to other occupancies in the building) and responsibilities for meeting those standards to offset the fact they locked the landlord out...

~~ Evan

[mhole]

I'm unsure as to the specifics of liability in the event of leaks etc, but they law essentially says that whilst it's the landlords house, it is the tenants home. The fire service don't need keys, in the event of a fire they have windows and doors which are very poor at resisting a determined fireman with an axe, and in the event of a leak the owner will have buildings insurance, and the tenant should have contents insurance.

Inspections and/or undertaking works are also performed with the tenants there, unless they decide to arrange otherwise. This may be less convenient for the landlord, but that inconvenience is part of what they get paid for. Whilst leaks, fires etc are going to happen sometimes, the extra hassle when they occur is offset against knowing somebody can't just let themselves into your home without asking you, or even telling you.

[Evan]

I'm unsure as to the specifics of liability in the event of leaks etc, but they law essentially says that whilst it's the landlords house, it is the tenants home. The fire service don't need keys, in the event of a fire they have windows and doors which are very poor at resisting a determined fireman with an axe, and in the event of a leak the owner will have buildings insurance, and the tenant should have contents insurance.

Inspections and/or undertaking works are also performed with the tenants there, unless they decide to arrange otherwise. This may be less convenient for the landlord, but that inconvenience is part of what they get paid for. Whilst leaks, fires etc are going to happen sometimes, the extra hassle when they occur is offset against knowing somebody can't just let themselves into your home without asking you, or even telling you.

I find those reasons to be flaky at best...

The fire service knocks down doors for fires and medical emergencies only when lives are at stake -- there are loads of legitimate reasons why that sort of "the tenant decides" just wouldn't work... Like when a gas leak happens or due to some work being done in the area pilot lights must be checked before the gas can be turned back on... But I guess under your particular system it isn't the landlord's fault they can not provide a habitable unit (no gas for cooking or hot water) because the tenant chooses not to be there or provide a key...

So in the UK when tenants complain of unfit conditions in their rental units it sounds like all the landlord need to do is to make an affirmative defense, yes, I/we am aware of the deficiencies, however, the tenant never allowed me or my agents access to the unit make the necessary repairs... That would be nice if it worked that way but I highly doubt it does...

It may be the tenant's "home" but it is not legally their property to exercise full control over, they are licensing its use as a place to live under the terms and conditions of a lease and the governing health and safety laws here... It sounds like your laws in the UK place more of the burden on a renter -- "contents insurance" won't cover the costs of repairing the building or the other tenants because a locked door prevented the immediate continuing spread of the damage, in the U.S. that would leave the tenant open to lawsuits by the other tenants, the landlord and all the insurance companies involved for willfully delaying repairs...

24 hours notice is not only impossible in some situations it is impractical... Emergency entry is permitted for a variety of reasons without notice, permission or any other notification requirements... Like I said before to the OP, change the lock and lock out the landlord at your own risk, you WILL end up replacing the lock or the door or both if entry needs to be made in an (non-life threatening) emergency and if you want all your stuff to still be there while your door is broken before you repair it, you should leave it well enough alone and make sure your landlord has a key...

Under the system you explained, it sounds like one tenant's refusal to grant entry in a timely manner could impair or deprive the other tenants of access to or enjoyment of their rented homes in some situations -- that seems odd that one person's claimed right to exclusive privacy in their place of residence would override other tenant's enjoyment of those same rights... But you have my curiosity peaked...

~~ Evan

[Squelchtone]

Evan, cool it with the legal advice. You're neither from the UK, nor a lawyer/solicitor.

I replied to this post this morning at 6am but deleted my reply because it would have only started an all out brawl, but I am deciding to reply right now because this post is getting more derailed than it needs to be. Unless you're gonna help the original poster measure his door to see if the other lock will fit, let's keep the legal advice and OSHA regulations out of the post.

Lastly, have you ever actually rented an apartment? Were you always a good boy and made sure to give the landlord a spare key? Give me a break. I guarantee you nobody wants to give their shady landlord a spare key, nobody. And if I ever did, I'd change my locks the next day, so they'd think they have a key, but it was not operational.

The fact is that there is a very well known common courtesy (if not a law) that a landlord gives a tenant 24 hour notice before they come over to inspect, drop by, or make repairs. In an emergency, I'm sure the landlord can call a tenant and say, hey listen there' s a water leak, do you mind if I A. use a key and walk in to your place, or B. I don't have your key, can you either get down here and unlock, or I'll have to kick the door in. Real life doesn't always happen like your ideal book version taken from some local ordinance or facilities management handbook.

this post is done.
Squelchtone