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Key cutting problem

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general lock picking questions here.
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Do not post safe related questions in this sub forum! Post them in This Old Safe

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Key cutting problem

Postby Pawnshop » 24 Mar 2012 16:00

Hello All, I am having trouble cutting keys for American locks on my Speedex machine. I have used this same machine for years to successfully cut house keys, Master lock keys and some car keys so I figured this would be a snap, but it's not. The blanks (AM3) are sitting higher on the cutting side than the master, so the cuts are too deep. What am I doing wrong?

I can't seem to get photos to load so here is a linkie:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1071941739 ... 7474416562
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby Raymond » 24 Mar 2012 22:14

Interesting question. From the picture the only thing that appears definitely odd is the spacing location in the jaws. One key appears much farther in than the other. Have you tried putting two AM6 blanks in at the same time to verify machine accuracy. House keys generally may have much looser tolerances and your duplicates work anyway even if off by 5-6 thousandths.

Have you tried taking a lock apart to SEE what is different from the original to the duplicate? This will allow you to verify spacing and depth at one look.

The strongest duplication advice I can give is to verify spacing first and depth second as this is the order of most of the inaccuracy problems.
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby Pawnshop » 24 Mar 2012 23:05

I just put the keys in for the photos and did not index them correctly for cutting. These blanks fit nicely in the locks and I have American keys cut on these blanks, maybe I just need to try a different machine with different blocks. I made sure the blocks were snug in the machine and the slot was clean.
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby keysman » 24 Mar 2012 23:23

Raymond wrote: Have you tried putting two AM6 blanks in at the same time to verify machine accuracy. House keys generally may have much looser tolerances and your duplicates work anyway even if off by 5-6 thousandths.


Pawnshop:

READ what he said ... put 2 BLANKS in the machine... this is to test if your cutting to the correct depth. it will also show if your spacing is off ..
The depth should be adjusted so the blade is JUST touching the blank when the machine is running. Listen to the wheel it should have a faint sound of cutting, NOT the sound of a full cut.
The spacing can be checked at the same time: set the blanks the same way. Either by the shouder or using the spacing guage. Does the machine still cut when you have reached the tip ? Has it stopped cutting before the tip? It should be just barley not cutting
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby yono » 25 Mar 2012 4:54

for me when that problem, occur and my analysis puzzles me i use my vernier caliper to see where it goes wrong. sometimes the unexpected happens. regards.
hi everyone, im glad to be a member of this very interesting community, our community of locksmiths. i hope i could help others, within my ability, and hope you can help me too, God bless us all fellow locksmiths.
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby raimundo » 25 Mar 2012 9:06

one thing that does happen when you believe your machine is cutting perfectly,

that is someone who thinks he knows it all wants to use your machine for one job and the fool changes settings while hes feeding his kno-wit- all-ego-trip. this happened to me, the fool didn't know how to use the machine so as usual he tries to change reality to fit his preconceptions.

the more someone insists that he know how to use your tools and wants to use them, the more you should wonder how he got to be such an expert without owning any tools of his own. Narcissists need to feed their egos and they need people to always agree with them, never challenge their wrongness, they feed off certain victims who are willing to suffer fools gladly.
I have a number of idiots who cant stand me because I have no time for them
Wake up and smell the Kafka!!!
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby HeadHunterCEO » 25 Mar 2012 14:09

For that machine in particular make sure there is not excessive lateral play in the cutting wheel assy.
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby cledry » 25 Mar 2012 22:00

HeadHunterCEO wrote:For that machine in particular make sure there is not excessive lateral play in the cutting wheel assy.


Whilst this is a problem on these machines it would have nothing to do with his problem.

I don't use the Speedex at my shop, but it has 2 way or 4 way jaws make sure they are both set the same. For example on my Bravo the B jaw is used for keys that I need to sit higher in the jaw. So if the original key was in a jaw set to A and the blank was in a jaw set to B the blank would sit higher in the block.
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby HeadHunterCEO » 27 Mar 2012 22:19

cledry wrote:
HeadHunterCEO wrote:For that machine in particular make sure there is not excessive lateral play in the cutting wheel assy.


Whilst this is a problem on these machines it would have nothing to do with his problem.

I don't use the Speedex at my shop, but it has 2 way or 4 way jaws make sure they are both set the same. For example on my Bravo the B jaw is used for keys that I need to sit higher in the jaw. So if the original key was in a jaw set to A and the blank was in a jaw set to B the blank would sit higher in the block.


Trouble : key won't duplicate

There is no room for assumptions based on poorly presented evidence in the trouble shooting of a problem. You prove what works until something does not. That being said lets recap what variables have been isolated since the original trouble was posted

linkie was posted showing us a factory key on the left and a blank on the right not in position to be copied (as admitted by OP) and really only tells us he has the same two jaws set and the machine is a mini speedex.
-correct blank
-The machine has been calibrated by using two blank keys
-He is using the spacing guage (which you should be and not depending on the blocks)
-He is using the correct blocks that are clean and properly set into the base of the machine
Next set of systems to verify on this extraordinarily simple key machine
-Is there excessive lateral play in the cutting wheel (prove)
-Has the rod that guides the carriage slipped out of the base on one side (prove)
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby Raymond » 27 Mar 2012 23:36

I do not have a Speedex to look at so some one else may answer this question. Is it possible for the bottom jaw to be turned to a different jaw height and the top jaw, with the indicators, put back on the wrong way? Someone else in his one-man shop is having an April Fools day prank.

I still think he should try both keys in a pinned up plug and see exactly where the duplicate is off. This will point him in the direction of the solution. Spacing? Depth-high or low? Simple but informative.
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby mhole » 28 Mar 2012 1:53

Also, check the blanks are the same shape around the area where the blade meets the bow, opposte the shoulder. If this is different, even quite subtly, and you clamp the key with this area in the jaws, the difference in shape can push the blank into a different position.
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby cledry » 28 Mar 2012 6:52

HeadHunterCEO wrote:
cledry wrote:
HeadHunterCEO wrote:For that machine in particular make sure there is not excessive lateral play in the cutting wheel assy.


Whilst this is a problem on these machines it would have nothing to do with his problem.

I don't use the Speedex at my shop, but it has 2 way or 4 way jaws make sure they are both set the same. For example on my Bravo the B jaw is used for keys that I need to sit higher in the jaw. So if the original key was in a jaw set to A and the blank was in a jaw set to B the blank would sit higher in the block.


Trouble : key won't duplicate

There is no room for assumptions based on poorly presented evidence in the trouble shooting of a problem. You prove what works until something does not. That being said lets recap what variables have been isolated since the original trouble was posted

linkie was posted showing us a factory key on the left and a blank on the right not in position to be copied (as admitted by OP) and really only tells us he has the same two jaws set and the machine is a mini speedex.
-correct blank
-The machine has been calibrated by using two blank keys
-He is using the spacing guage (which you should be and not depending on the blocks)
-He is using the correct blocks that are clean and properly set into the base of the machine
Next set of systems to verify on this extraordinarily simple key machine
-Is there excessive lateral play in the cutting wheel (prove)
-Has the rod that guides the carriage slipped out of the base on one side (prove)


All correct and should be checked from time to time.

Lateral play in my experience as both a locksmith and a machinist will not affect depth though. The OP states the keys are sitting at different heights in the jaws. That is specifically what I was referring to.

I would add using two original blanks is better than using two aftermarket blanks. The blade height does vary on aftermarket blanks, so we use original Yale or Sargent generally.

A good set of dial calipers should be in every shop to check cut keys when a problem occurs. It takes only moments to determine from where the problem arises and correct it.
Jim
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby cledry » 28 Mar 2012 6:54

mhole wrote:Also, check the blanks are the same shape around the area where the blade meets the bow, opposte the shoulder. If this is different, even quite subtly, and you clamp the key with this area in the jaws, the difference in shape can push the blank into a different position.


That is another case for using the top stop and not the bottom stop in the jaw.
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby FarmerFreak » 28 Mar 2012 8:58

If the machine is still cutting all of the keys you normally cut correctly. I wouldn't bother adjusting the machine for a few keys that you don't normally cut.

In theory if the machine was adjusted correctly then it should cut the american keys without a problem. However sometimes that theory doesn't always hold up. One jaw may be more worn than the other and while it holds larger keys just fine the smaller american blanks may tip at an angle on one side. That's just one of many possible issues...

Anyways, if the only real issue is the depth. Use a couple pieces of paper to shim the key up a little bit. It's a quick easy and most importantly a temporary solution, not a permanent fix.
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Re: Key cutting problem

Postby mhole » 28 Mar 2012 10:26

cledry wrote:
mhole wrote:Also, check the blanks are the same shape around the area where the blade meets the bow, opposte the shoulder. If this is different, even quite subtly, and you clamp the key with this area in the jaws, the difference in shape can push the blank into a different position.


That is another case for using the top stop and not the bottom stop in the jaw.


I always use the top stop, but even so some aftermarket blanks have a step in height, or a slightly different curve where the head and bow meet which can lead to clamping errors. I'll often clamp the original in place, then slide in the blank, only to discover that it has a shorter straight section of blade back, requiring me to reclamp the original further over. Assuming that the original and blank can be clamped in the same place can lead to a visit from the cockup monster,
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