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Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby misterj » 27 May 2012 17:10

I'm hoping this isn't common, but I'm shocked that one of our two local guys is still in business!

Usually, I visit the other locksmith, but on two separate occasions he's closed early for a holiday weekend and I've had to resort to the other.

On Friday I needed to have two keys made for work, so I borrowed my boss's keys and went to have them made. I wasn't sure I had the blanks at home (Both were Yale sectionals on two different G keyways), so I drove by my preferred locksmith who was closed, and resorted to the other. He cut the two for me ($9 later, but he used OEM Yale blanks which I understand are expensive, so I can't complain much), and figured I'd try them on the two buildings in question on my way home. First one was pretty tight, but the spacing was right and it worked on every door that I tried. I figured I could live with that. The second one was a problem, though...I couldn't get into the building with it, so I used my boss's to get in to see if it worked on any other doors. I tried it on quite a few doors, and on the rare cases where I could get it to work, it was extremely fidgety. Most doors, it wouldn't even turn. At this point it was too late to go back, so I headed home.

Got home, happened to double-check, and I had a few generic Ilco Y4 blanks. Figured I'd give it a shot with those. Cut both keys on my HPC Speedex Premier, went back to each building and my keys work absolutely perfectly. How can a storefront locksmith really have a machine that far out of calibration? Mine's not even close to perfect and I still cut those just fine.

On another day in the past, I wanted him to code-cut a 6-pin Schlage "E" key because the spacing was off a hair and it was driving me nuts. He looked at me like I had four heads, said it was impossible to do, and sent me on my way. I could easily do it now with my depth and space keys and gauge.

Anyone else run into locksmiths like this? I'm really shocked that the other one hasn't put him out of business by now. I can't believe this is a common thing!
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby globallockytoo » 27 May 2012 17:19

there are many instances of this across the world. Unfortunately, here in the USA, there is not any set standard of competency to call yourself a locksmith. Many so called locksmiths completed the Foley Belsaw course and start ruining people locks. It is all about training and perhaps this fellow doesnt have any. in other countries the trade is actually a profession and as such, (generally) requires completion of a rigorous 4 year apprenticeship or a 7 year tradesman's rite.

Without enforceable regulation, the industry is wide open to scammers and imposters.
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Disclaimer: Do not pull tag off mattress. Not responsible for legal advice while laughing.
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby Evan » 27 May 2012 18:12

@misterj:

I am surprised that the facilities/maintenance department at your employer doesn't have a code machine to originate new keys in-house...

That mark up you pay per key adds up over time... In as little as two years you could recover the investment expense of a code key cutter...

~~ Evan
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby misterj » 27 May 2012 19:19

globallockytoo wrote:there are many instances of this across the world. Unfortunately, here in the USA, there is not any set standard of competency to call yourself a locksmith. Many so called locksmiths completed the Foley Belsaw course and start ruining people locks. It is all about training and perhaps this fellow doesnt have any. in other countries the trade is actually a profession and as such, (generally) requires completion of a rigorous 4 year apprenticeship or a 7 year tradesman's rite.

Without enforceable regulation, the industry is wide open to scammers and imposters.


The worst part is this guy has a really nice looking shop, is a Medeco dealer, and looks to have plenty of stock as far as blanks go at least (he doesn't have all the cylinders hanging up, of course!).


Evan wrote:@misterj:

I am surprised that the facilities/maintenance department at your employer doesn't have a code machine to originate new keys in-house...

That mark up you pay per key adds up over time... In as little as two years you could recover the investment expense of a code key cutter...

~~ Evan


I can understand why they don't bother doing it themselves...they very rarely need keys cut. Employee turnover is extremely low (and when someone leaves, they turn in their keys and their replacement gets them). The buildings should probably be rekeyed, but I'd put a larger wager on seeing a flying cow than them spending the money to do that. They're mostly Yale or Sargent hardware and keyways that I don't think were restricted even when new (unless Sargent's R keyways were at one time, or Yale's G keyways, but I don't think so). They're old systems, I doubt anyone knows how they're laid out anymore, and they've pretty much been recycling keys since they were put into place. Broken/worn keys are just about the only time they have a new one cut, and then that's often a copy of someone else's...or on the very rare occasion that a new hire that isn't replacing anyone needs a key, but then most of the time they have an extra for them. It's mostly masters that they don't have laying around and only a few people have them so it's a project for me to get one.
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby cledry » 27 May 2012 23:37

How long since the buildings were rekeyed? Pins wear over time and a duplicate key even off a new code cut key or for that matter the code key itself may not work properly. If the key is worn and the pins are worn and a duplicator is set to cut slightly low then you have a compound problem.

I know key machines are expected to be 100% but the fact is sometimes an employee will adjust to cut deeper or shallower and forget to reset it (especially with machines that have a micrometer adjustment). It could be brass shavings in the jaw. Until someone goes back and says their key doesn't work he may not catch the problem immediately.

I do find it odd that this locksmith said he cannot cut a Schlage key by the depths. Possibly he told you that because he thought you were trying to get a key you shouldn't have? For example I had a maintenance man come into the shop and ask for a Yale cut to specific depths and I knew that he worked for the hospital. I looked up the cuts and found out the key was the GGM so made the excuse that I was out of blanks rather than flat out say I wasn't going to cut it.
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby cledry » 27 May 2012 23:41

misterj wrote:Broken/worn keys are just about the only time they have a new one cut, and then that's often a copy of someone else's...


That right there is a problem. There should be a key box with originals or code cut keys to be used just for making duplicates. Copies of copies of copies plus worn locks is just going to cause problems.
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby misterj » 28 May 2012 8:54

cledry wrote:How long since the buildings were rekeyed? Pins wear over time and a duplicate key even off a new code cut key or for that matter the code key itself may not work properly. If the key is worn and the pins are worn and a duplicator is set to cut slightly low then you have a compound problem.

I know key machines are expected to be 100% but the fact is sometimes an employee will adjust to cut deeper or shallower and forget to reset it (especially with machines that have a micrometer adjustment). It could be brass shavings in the jaw. Until someone goes back and says their key doesn't work he may not catch the problem immediately.

I do find it odd that this locksmith said he cannot cut a Schlage key by the depths. Possibly he told you that because he thought you were trying to get a key you shouldn't have? For example I had a maintenance man come into the shop and ask for a Yale cut to specific depths and I knew that he worked for the hospital. I looked up the cuts and found out the key was the GGM so made the excuse that I was out of blanks rather than flat out say I wasn't going to cut it.


Definitely a possibility. I think they were all cut a hair too high, but I'd have to look again to be sure.

As far as the Schlage, I had one in my hand when I asked, it just didn't work perfectly because whoever copied it got the spacing off. The heights were fine, so he could have figured out the code from it (I checked it myself later on and it wasn't ambiguous at all). He offered to just make a copy but said it would come out the same.

For the most part, the keying in the buildings hasn't changed since they were built...which would have been anywhere from 10-30 years ago depending on the building.

cledry wrote:
misterj wrote:Broken/worn keys are just about the only time they have a new one cut, and then that's often a copy of someone else's...


That right there is a problem. There should be a key box with originals or code cut keys to be used just for making duplicates. Copies of copies of copies plus worn locks is just going to cause problems.

No disagreements there. Unfortunately, I don't really have any say of what goes on there. The ones I used to copy were originals that were very rarely used (had the factory registration number stamped on them). It's possible that the doors the copies happened to work in were doors that weren't used all that often and weren't worn. Still, though, my copy worked in every door just like the original did, so I'm thinking his machine was off.
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby Evan » 28 May 2012 12:23

cledry wrote:
misterj wrote:Broken/worn keys are just about the only time they have a new one cut, and then that's often a copy of someone else's...


That right there is a problem. There should be a key box with originals or code cut keys to be used just for making duplicates. Copies of copies of copies plus worn locks is just going to cause problems.


@cledry:

How many school districts do you know of that properly manage their keys ?

For every one you can list there are 99 that don't...

The keying systems have all expired yet in schools no one ever wants to replace a master key system until there have been issues with things mysteriously vanishing and several "protected" rooms have already been re-keyed in each building to the point where someone who needs to enter every room in each building has a keyring with two or three dozen keys on it for each building...

Sadly it only costs a small amount of money to properly manage keys and keying systems in-house if you have someone on staff who understands how to do it... Keeping a key box around with a copy of each key inside it is not the most ideal method either, but acceptable if you do not have a person in-house who can handle managing the system(s)... It is better to keep the code machine and blanks along with a system chart secured in special location and only create the keys as you need them...

Especially in schools, teachers who have been employed there a long time end up with a collection of keys, many of which they no longer have a legitimate need to possess... I.E. they have been moved from one classroom to another, or used to coach a sport in the past and still have locker room/gymnasium keys, etc... Even using an index card based low-tech method to track the issuance of keys combined with a yearly review of who is holding which keys and why many problems could be easily eliminated... Each key should be marked according to the key symbol in the system for which it is cut to operate and also have a serialized identification number... Nothing is more interesting than receiving a keyring full of unmarked duplicate keys and having to use a key gauge to figure out which keys they are and wondering how the person who surrendered them obtained a copy of some of those keys...

~~ Evan
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby cledry » 28 May 2012 13:46

Schools here use their own locksmiths. Can't comment on how they maintain their systems, but I can comment on what is good practice. We are mostly a commercial locksmith and over the years many property managers have decided that maintaining a key box with originals will pay dividends in the long run. They don't have code machines generally just a duplicator. A first generation duplicate will generally tell you whether you have a key problem or a lock problem. At our shop we do not keep any MKs on file just have access to the bitting and generate as needed. We do keep keys for things like pool gates etc. where we often get a request for 30-75 at a time, but these have no real key control involved as the residents can copy the keys as they like.
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby globallockytoo » 28 May 2012 14:20

Evan wrote:@misterj:

I am surprised that the facilities/maintenance department at your employer doesn't have a code machine to originate new keys in-house...

That mark up you pay per key adds up over time... In as little as two years you could recover the investment expense of a code key cutter...

~~ Evan



This really surprise me (not) Evan....especially coming from you.

the use of code cutting machinery in my opinion should be restricted to bonafide locksmiths. If the FM or maintenance dept employs a paper qualified locksmith, that is different, but the machine should only be operated in the presence of the qualified locksmith.

Again, this all goes back to the lack of regulation and gazetted qualifications to be a locksmith.

Heck! if you want to drive a car, you must pass a strict licensing exam and be subjected to regular periodic testing. Locksmiths should be the same. (electricians are, plumbers are, doctors are, lawyers are, hairdressers are - why not locksmiths?)

END RANT!
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Disclaimer: Do not pull tag off mattress. Not responsible for legal advice while laughing.
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby Evan » 28 May 2012 15:50

globallockytoo wrote:This really surprise me (not) Evan....especially coming from you.

the use of code cutting machinery in my opinion should be restricted to bonafide locksmiths. If the FM or maintenance dept employs a paper qualified locksmith, that is different, but the machine should only be operated in the presence of the qualified locksmith.

Again, this all goes back to the lack of regulation and gazetted qualifications to be a locksmith.

Heck! if you want to drive a car, you must pass a strict licensing exam and be subjected to regular periodic testing. Locksmiths should be the same. (electricians are, plumbers are, doctors are, lawyers are, hairdressers are - why not locksmiths?)

END RANT!


@globallockytoo:

Since all 50 states can not now nor will they ever agree on much of anything, the licensing of locksmiths will not be a universal process in the US... Even within the licensed trades the renewal requirements once you are licensed vary greatly from location to location for the same exact trade profession...

Therefore, what I have said in the context of not having a key box filled with a copy of each and every key for a school building located somewhere on the premises (which inevitably they are when they exist) because they are often not properly inventoried or located in a secure enough area to be considered safe from tampering -- they become a concentrated (read: optimal) target for those people within the school who wish to obtain more keys to the building...

They are often poorly located in either the main administration office or custodian's rooms which while seeming like a good choice of location to put the key box neither is really good because the custodian's main work room in most every school I have ever been inside of is never kept locked ever (often the door isn't even closed too) so that means that just about anyone who knows what that locked little box hanging on the wall is could access it -- the main office seems like a good location too but it is not supervised at all after hours and too many employees in a school tend to have keys to the main office because frequently it is where the staff mail bins are located and may also be the location of the teacher's lounge... So too many people can access the locked key box in most situations...

Since the key box is not being used by someone who understands the keying system often times there is a conversion chart located within it which translates the key symbol (or even just the tag number in the key box itself) to the door or room number where that key operates... That sort of unsupervised (i.e. it is not in a continuously occupied duty station like a Central Plant or Security Room) access to all of the keys for the facility represents a larger security risk than it provides any benefit for the organization...

Keeping a code key machine, key blanks and system charts locked up in a safe (or GSA type file cabinet) until you need to use them provides a higher level of security for the equipment and information... It also eliminates the need to organize, maintain, inventory and secure a key box which can contain hundreds and hundreds of keys when you factor in built-in casework and furniture like desks and file cabinets that are present in a school...

~~ Evan
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby Evan » 28 May 2012 16:13

misterj wrote:I can understand why they don't bother doing it themselves...they very rarely need keys cut. Employee turnover is extremely low (and when someone leaves, they turn in their keys and their replacement gets them). The buildings should probably be rekeyed, but I'd put a larger wager on seeing a flying cow than them spending the money to do that. They're mostly Yale or Sargent hardware and keyways that I don't think were restricted even when new (unless Sargent's R keyways were at one time, or Yale's G keyways, but I don't think so). They're old systems, I doubt anyone knows how they're laid out anymore, and they've pretty much been recycling keys since they were put into place. Broken/worn keys are just about the only time they have a new one cut, and then that's often a copy of someone else's...or on the very rare occasion that a new hire that isn't replacing anyone needs a key, but then most of the time they have an extra for them. It's mostly masters that they don't have laying around and only a few people have them so it's a project for me to get one.


@misterj:

One security employee who knows what they are doing earning about $40,000 a year to supervise the master keying systems and be in charge of the keys for your school district (and undertake general maintenance or custodial tasks when their security function is not required) would prevent several multiples of that salary annually in internal theft just by ensuring that the compartmentalization of access within each school building is not breached by the various issues that plague school keys:

The long-term employee key collectors who have no need for all the keys they possess... The "I want a master key" teachers who want to be able to use one key to access all the rooms they legitimately use... The teachers who are transferred from one school to another yet keep copies of the keys for their old building without a legitimate or approved reason...

School Security is a serious business... There is no reason not to really take it seriously beyond putting boilerplate prohibitory policies in the student handbook restricting students from having school building keys... Most of the theft committed by students is opportunistic, i.e. someone left a door opened and turned their back or walked away too long and things grew legs and walked away... It is really the staff that go after supplies kept in long-term storage rooms that are rarely inventoried so the theft may not even be detected until a long time after it happens...

For your information, the Sargent "R" keyway family has never been restricted, it is used on an assigned basis for contract master keying projects... The Yale G,S and T keyway families (all operated by a Y4 keyblank) have always been open you are thinking of the V, Y and Z for what used to be "restricted"...

There is absolutely no excuse with a school facility to use open keyways for locks to secure the building... Doing so shortens the practical 15 year lifespan for a well maintained keying system drastically even if it is being supervised and maintained as users can obtain duplicate keys anywhere -- in a totally unmanaged and unsupervised system with an open keyway all it does after a few years is keep the students out of unattended areas when the doors actually get locked...

Factory restricted (registered) or patented keyways for school facilities at minimum as not every door needs to be protected by a high security lock... They provide key control as none of the users or local locksmiths can obtain the restricted, registered or patented keyblanks to produce unauthorized duplicate keys without investing a lot of money in a specialized mini-milling machine and committing criminal patent infringement in the case of patented keyways... Such efforts would not be undertaken by a teacher to obtain a school master key as the costs associated with the process would far exceed any benefit of obtaining the key...

~~ Evan
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby steelseriesal » 29 May 2012 2:05

Years ago my mom had a "professional" locksmith come to open the door of an apartment in the building, I remember this guy spent about 10 minutes with his really loud pickgun then he just drilled the lock.. I don't even think he had any lockpicks, just drill bits. It surprised the hell out of me. And note this was not a high security lock it was the kind of lock you pick up in a hardware store for $9.99. I bet all he had to do was spray some wd40 in it before he used the pickgun.
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby cledry » 29 May 2012 6:06

steelseriesal wrote:Years ago my mom had a "professional" locksmith come to open the door of an apartment in the building, I remember this guy spent about 10 minutes with his really loud pickgun then he just drilled the lock.. I don't even think he had any lockpicks, just drill bits. It surprised the hell out of me. And note this was not a high security lock it was the kind of lock you pick up in a hardware store for $9.99. I bet all he had to do was spray some wd40 in it before he used the pickgun.


At our shop the lowest guys on the totem pole do usually do the lockouts. They train on VA and HUD and FM homes so usually they can pick the locks, but 10 minutes is about right for a drill to come out. We do not charge any extra and put the lock back into working order so there is no downside to the customer. The locksmiths with experience are doing more complex jobs.
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Re: Anyone ever find a really bad locksmith?

Postby gibson » 30 May 2012 16:16

the town where i live tried a few years back to regulate locksmiths. they got so bogged down with defining what a locksmith is that they never got around to establishing licensing requirements. as a result, anyone who callls him or herself a locksmith is a locksmith. one guy who managed the shop where i started came from one of those 24-hour locksmith service places, you know, aaaa allstar all-hour locksmith. he would have me drill out a lock even though it could be opened in a non-destructive manner (especially if it was after 5:00 pm), and would charge telephone number prices. no class and i didn't learn anything except what i didn't want to be. i also met a couple of old-timers who could identify the most worn-out stub of a key and tell you what the blank was. these guys could make springs from wire, knew how to actually fix things and not just replace the entire lock i just wish i knew a quarter of what these two knew.
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