Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.
by gswimfrk » 3 Sep 2011 23:40
Today I purchased a GMS MX restricted key system...
How was your experience with the lock?
How much did you pay for the lock/cylinders and keys?
Are they difficult to pick (mine contain shroom pins)
Thanks,
Ivan
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gswimfrk
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by lock2006 » 5 Sep 2011 22:48
I don't get your question can you post a picture please and be a little more specific about your question thanks.
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by Evan » 5 Sep 2011 23:09
@Everyone: The GMS MX restricted key system that gswimfrk is asking about is a proprietary keyway that uses restricted blanks and standard Schlage pinning specs... << External link to the GMS Industries MX Product Listing Page >>I have otherwise not heard of the product until now but I assume it is GMS's version of a Locksmith keyway along the lines of: the LSDA “LSA†Keyway, the Clark Platinum Keyway, the USCAN “Locksmith†Keyway, the Marks premium keyway, et al... Key control without anything in the way of high security features other than spooled/serrated top pins... ~~ Evan
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by MacGyver101 » 6 Sep 2011 9:46
Evan wrote:I have otherwise not heard of the product until now but I assume it is GMS's version of a Locksmith keyway . . .
That pretty much sums it up. I have an MX mortise cylinder, and there's nothing particularly fancy inside. My cylinder was ordered "zero-bitted" (i.e., uncombinated) -- which is an option from the factory -- and so it came with a couple of blanks... so much for "key control". 
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by Evan » 6 Sep 2011 18:20
MacGyver101 wrote:I have an MX mortise cylinder, and there's nothing particularly fancy inside. My cylinder was ordered "zero-bitted" (i.e., uncombinated) -- which is an option from the factory -- and so it came with a couple of blanks... so much for "key control". 
@MacGyver101: That is a good point about the key control but from the scant information posted by GMS on their website about the MX it seems clear that there are multiple keyways available that are controlled by some method... Restricted Security Cylinders where you can order cylinders Zero bitted and get blank keys -- ROFL... A Zero bitted order by a verified institutional customer or locksmith maybe, but not Joe Shmoe consumer... ~~ Evan
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by gswimfrk » 6 Sep 2011 21:20
Thanks for clarifying Evan As for key control... When I asked about the lock, my locksmith showed me a zero bitted cylinder with a blank key He disassembled it to show me that it was loaded with 6 mushroom pins and I was told that each locksmith has a unique keyway(a really nasty one)... sorta like medecos... (The bow even looked like a medeco) I was wondering if mushroom pins will make a lock anti bump, if not more pick resistant. Thanks!
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by David Swearingen » 27 Mar 2012 21:10
I am an authorized MX dealer, so I can give you some detailed and accurate information on these locks. First of all, the term "proprietary keyway" means a keyway that is proprietary to a single, very large end user. For example, Best B keyway that was originally made for Standard Oil ONLY, or Best C keyway that was originally limited to Fisher Body ONLY. Very few keyways are truly proprietary, as it is very limiting to a manufacturer when they make something for a single customer only, and there aren't enough different keyway grooves to give very many end users unique keyways. I know of only about 40 proprietary keyways. The MX keyways are "restricted" rather than proprietary, meaning that they are available only to customers who have been granted the right to that keyway by contract with the manufactuers. Other examples would be Yale keyways in the PA thru PK series and Sargent NA thru NN series. These may sometimes be available thru aftermarket manufactuers such as Ilco, but the manufactuers won't sell them to unauthorized companies. Likewise, the MX cylinders can only be purchased thru authorized dealers who have signed a contract with their distributors to keep the key blanks secure. After all, MX security depends largely upon keeping blanks off the market. O-bitted cylinders are not supposed to end up in the public's hands; locksmiths are expected to cut the keys and pin the cylinders before selling them; otherwise the factory is likely to void their contract. Anyway, the "zero-bitted" cylinders and keys are not really zero-bitted with blanks, but 1-bitted cylinders with 1-bitted cut keys. Whenever I set up a system with these, I always make a least one of the cuts on the master keys an actual zero, thereby preventing anyone from using an "zero-bitted" key from duplicating a master. In order to become an MX dealer, a locksmith must first find a distributor who handles the GMS products. Most distributors don't. The distributors are generally limited to one of about ten different keyways. They are responsible for limiting distribution to a single locksmith in each market area. As a practical matter, this means that the first locksmith in each city who can convince the distributor he can sell a fair number of these things will be the only one allowed to be their dealer in that city. This insures that no one else in that city can obtain that keyway. The contract not only requires the dealer to keep the key blanks secure, but also to purchase a certain amount each year in order to keep his account active (though I don't think this last part is strictly enforced). Many companies need better key control and/or pick resistance, but don't need or can't afford all the bells and whistles of the true high security cylinders. MX cylinders are an excellent solution that works very well for these users. 
We are all born as originals. Why do so many of us die as copies?
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by cledry » 28 Mar 2012 6:29
Can't add anything more to the above. A very well written informative post. We are also an authorized reseller and use these cylinders on condo and apartment common areas when the customer needs a degree of key control. By not having a blank key available there is less concern about bumping, although theoretically someone could take a cut key and make one to access other locks on the same keyway, we have not found evidence of this in practice.
Jim
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cledry
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by MacGyver101 » 28 Mar 2012 7:24
David Swearingen wrote:Anyway, the "zero-bitted" cylinders and keys are not really zero-bitted with blanks, but 1-bitted cylinders with 1-bitted cut keys.
Hrm... strange: my cylinder definately came with a pair of blanks. (I had to cut it down a depth in each position to get it to work in the factory-pinned cylinder.)
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by FarmerFreak » 28 Mar 2012 8:15
Looks like everyone has mainly focused on the key control aspect of the lock. As far as picking goes. The keyways really are pretty nasty to pick through. Nothing that a slender hook can't get past, but they are pretty tough to pick because of the keyway. The mushroom pins make it a bit more difficult, but compared to the keyway they don't add much. There is no reason they wouldn't be bumpable as is. Assuming someone got a hold of a key and turned it into a bump key. If you really wanted them to seriously be bump resistant you'll need to request that your locksmith get some Ilco Bump Halt pins/springs. For pins/springs they are rather expensive, but well worth it. Especially if you put two of them in each lock, that will make them really hard to pick. 
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by misterj » 2 Apr 2012 17:44
I've seen these in the wild once (small publishing company). I think one of the local locksmiths uses them for a key control solution for their customers. The keyway looked a little nasty. Don't really know anything else about them.
Interesting point about how easy it is to get blanks for some restricted systems, though. One of the buildings I work in has a ~2 year old Corbin-Russwin system on a restricted keyway. They just ordered several boxes of blanks so they could have some more keys cut. There really isn't much stopping one of the employees from ordering a few more boxes of blanks and selling them on EBay. Corbin Russwin doesn't publish the keyway profile in their literature, probably so nobody can copy it and come up with an aftermarket blank since there's no patent protection on this keyway. I only found out which keyway it was to begin with because it was on the box of blanks. These cylinders probably aren't even close to as secure as the GMS MX ones. I don't think they have any security pins, there are three operating keys plus a control (GM System, Interchangeable cores) for each cylinder, and the keyway is nothing crazy. The shape is actually very similar to the old Corbin 77 keyway.
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by gswimfrk » 16 Jun 2012 0:59
Wow, great info and thanks for contributing. I took a short leave away from lp101 as I was really busy. (Missed it very much) I have used my GMS MX cylinder in a schlage padlock and I must say they don't like each other. For the other GMS MX owners out there, what type of certification/proof of ownership did you provide to get duplicates? My locksmith didn't really have any authorization procedure... he just said "I recognize you" lol. Thanks Y'all!
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gswimfrk
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by cledry » 16 Jun 2012 8:00
gswimfrk wrote:Wow, great info and thanks for contributing. I took a short leave away from lp101 as I was really busy. (Missed it very much) I have used my GMS MX cylinder in a schlage padlock and I must say they don't like each other. For the other GMS MX owners out there, what type of certification/proof of ownership did you provide to get duplicates? My locksmith didn't really have any authorization procedure... he just said "I recognize you" lol. Thanks Y'all!
We keep a log of all MX systems we sell as well as Primus and other key control systems. If someone comes in we require a signed letter on letterhead, the signature must match the ones we have on file for the particular system. For example X company has employee 1 & 2 signatures on file, 1 or 2 must sign the request and it must state specifically who is coming to get them (ID required) and specifically how many keys. We never sell blanks and we only sell combinated cylinders. Because of the low cost of this system and the usual use (pool gates, common areas) there will be hundreds of keys in circulation. However the tenants, residents are charged a deposit on their key of $35 which they get back if they move and return the key. It does somewhat keep tenants from pretending to lose their key and passing it along to someone else
Jim
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cledry
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by Evan » 16 Jun 2012 13:03
cledry wrote:We keep a log of all MX systems we sell as well as Primus and other key control systems. If someone comes in we require a signed letter on letterhead, the signature must match the ones we have on file for the particular system. For example X company has employee 1 & 2 signatures on file, 1 or 2 must sign the request and it must state specifically who is coming to get them (ID required) and specifically how many keys.
We never sell blanks and we only sell combinated cylinders.
Because of the low cost of this system and the usual use (pool gates, common areas) there will be hundreds of keys in circulation. However the tenants, residents are charged a deposit on their key of $35 which they get back if they move and return the key. It does somewhat keep tenants from pretending to lose their key and passing it along to someone else
@cledry: Asking for any other verification procedure other than what the manufacturer requires is just opening the door to a world of hurt one day... The bitting code card that Primus or Medeco, et al uses should be all you need... Code card + key to duplicate = authorization... Asking for letters of authorization on letter head is assuming a "duty to care" beyond that which you need to assume, as being the party requiring the instrument of authorization it is upon you to determine whether said authorization is valid and the person presenting it for use is actually allowed to sign legal documents on behalf of the company represented by the letter head... Accepting a forged or false instrument of authorization places all of the liability on you because you required it above and beyond the contractually required procedure set by the manufacturer and failed to act in any way to verify it... To collect such letters thinking, like many, that you will be protected is a false hope... You would be responsible for re-keying any locks effected by a false letter of authorization because you wanted the letter to provide the keys, yes you were tricked and you can file criminal complaints against someone who passes a forged document on you like that but you are left holding the bag money wise because of your failure to ensure each instrument of authorization presented is actually valid and what it proclaims to be, rather than accepting it at face value and filing it away... Your policy must have a hole in it for when the person whose signature is on file separates from the given company whose key system they were responsible for ? What about a system in a building or tenant space that changes hands from one company to another ? Often the manufacturers of high security locks require locksmiths who can service such systems to recombinate locks and issue new bitting signature cards when one is lost and a system owner desires additional keys... I am not an owner of your business, however my advice is to require ONLY that which you are contractually obligated to require of system owners by the OEM, not to create your own policy requiring additional verification as that can backfire even though your intention is to try and provide better security to your customers... ~~ Evan
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by cledry » 16 Jun 2012 13:25
There is no card with this system. Obviously if the customer is willing to go for a restricted Primus or Medeco system then the procedure you have stated is the norm.
With the system in question what would be your policy?
Jim
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