American Series 5200 issue after re-pinning

[Pigeonman5000]

So, I came across an American Series 5200 lock and proceeded to pick it in less than a day. I've never done anything beyond various Master Locks, some Japanese Locks and doorknobs here and there.

So....after I pick it (took me half the day, various tries & a screwdriver), I decided to gut it. The key pins were all serrated and the security pins were 4 serrated & 1 hybrid serrated spool pin. I thought it was cool so I took pictures and whatnot and then proceeded to put the guts back in.

It took me a short while to pick it again, but this time it was different...harder to push the pins down with my long hook and figuring out the tension was awkward at best. Anyway, I picked it open but didn't need the screw driver to turn the key-way....it was just super easy this time. So...I close the shackle and turn the plug to lock it and the plug won't stay where it should be. It just spins in there from the top to the left 90 degrees.

So now I have this lock that I can lock and take my prybar and unlock it w/o having to pick it. The other interesting thing is that when lock it, sometimes the plug will go back to where it's supposed to be...but then I can keep turning it...counter-clockwise.

In an attempt to paint a better picture, lets say that when the lock is open, the TOK is ---> and when I lock it, the TOK can be turned as far as 180 degrees the other direction <----.

Before I took it apart this didn't happen at all. Anyone have any ideas as to what's going on here? Thanks in advance for any info/guidance!

[raimundo]

did you find a coil of spring under the plug? one that puts some resistance to tension on the plug? This may have to be retensioned when reinserting the plug,
the locking dogs are balls, the plug operates a brass piece that has two holes in it ahat allow the balles to enter the brass piece and get out of the way of releasing the shackle, is this working as it should.

really I havent taken an american lock apart in several years so I have forgotten the procedure, someone like squelchtone may have it ready in his head.
I do know that all 5200's are not necessarily exactly the same mechanism, changes have been made from time to time, there are variants.

good luck on it and I am sure this is going to be an interesting learning experience for you.

[Emrys]

As far as the turning issue is concerned, I'm not sure what you changed to cause it to turn so easily. But as for the issue of it winding up 180 degrees from its normal position when u slap the shackle back down, I'd consider that "normal"...or at least consistent with the 5200s I've picked. You probably got the top pins poking down into the bottom side of the plug, if that makes sense. Usually all you have to do is put the flat side of ur pick in and press them up while you turn the lock back to its original position.

I used to pick a lot of these when i was in the navy. They were always lying around everywhere and this would happen to me from time to time.

[Pigeonman5000]

I used to pick a lot of these when i was in the navy.

I'm in the Navy, and that's where I got them. I haven't really had time to mess around with it, but when I figure out what I did, I'll be sure to post what it was. I recently found another 5200 and picked it.

Have any of you seen wizwazzle's youtube video of him picking/gutting a 5200? It had no serrated key pins and hardly had any serrated or spool pins in it. He picked it quick too! That was back in 2008 or 2010..can't remember, so I was wondering if anyone knew when they changed the pins in the locks. They're fun to pick and definitely leaps and bounds above anything else I've picked (mostly master locks and some Japanese locks).

[Emrys]

I think they are awesome locks to learn on. I've never heard of a 5200 without security pins. It may have got serviced with regular pins. They can be easily broken down and repinned.
I like the fact it has security pins though. Its like they almost TELL you which pin is binding. If you know how fo pick security pins, it can actually be kinda easy.
A new 5200 can be a great learning tool but i LOATHE having to pick one that has accumulated a few years of rust & dirt. I find that feedback is next to nonexistent.
Let us know if you figure out what you did to make ur 5200 turn so easy.

[Pigeonman5000]

So....I gutted the lock again and was wondering if the security pins were supposed to sit flush inside the bible (maybe flush with the shear line makes more sense, while sitting inside the bible)? It makes sense to me that they would considering you have to get the plug back in the cylinder, but I'm a noob at this and thought I'd ask. I don't have the key, which is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

I'm not sure if its the springs or not, but when I put the plug into the cylinder, it still won't lock, it just rotates occasionally getting caught on a pin but all i have to do it wiggle it and it's back to rotating. Hmmm. Well, it's late, so I'm just gonna bag it and work on it another day...just thought I'd post an update on my fail attempt at re-pinning. lol

EDIT: I got it to lock, but once I put it back in the housing, closed the shackle and stuck my prybar in it to test it...I was still able to open the lock w/o picking. I really think it's the springs and the security pins.

[Raymond]

It sound to me as if the random combination you have encountered in this lock along with American's consistent tendency to leave the springs too compressed have created a situation. The springs and top pins probably will not go down far enough to actually lock the plug in the lock. Each spring should be stretched a little so it sticks out some when put into its hole while the plug is out. Using a "plug follower" each top pin (security or otherwise) can be put in with tweezers by using the pin to push the spring down. Provide a little pressure in with the plug follower to bind the top pin and then push it all the way down with the edge of the tweezer as the follower slides over it.

Without a key, or having the cylinder picked, you will not be able to put this lock back together completely as it is key retaining. There is a lot more to be said about pitfalls you may discover. Look back at some previous posts about the 5200 and pin tumbler locks in general for a lot more insight.

KEEP THE SHACKLE OPEN OR REMOVED UNTIL YOU ARE SURE IT IS WORKING PROPERLY.

Have fun.

[Altashot]

The way i see it,
you re-inserted the plug in the wrong end of the bible.
The pin chambers in the plug don't quite line up with the chambers in the bible.
That is why the cylinder wont lock properly.

Check it out!

[keysman]

The way i see it,
you re-inserted the plug in the wrong end of the bible.

Check it out!

YUP thats where my money is... good call

[raimundo]

sometimes people don't look at the cylinder when they take is apart, or it has no really obvious way to see which end is front.
I suggest that the OP look at another cylinder from the same type of lock and see if the pin holes are closer to one or the other end
or look for any obvious tell, and in the future he should use a black marker to mark that end before taking it apart.

[GWiens2001]

I had a 5200 that, after reassembly, would require a great deal of tension to turn the key if the screw that holds the thing together was fully tightened. After several days of playing around, found that the cause was the same as above - plug inserted in the wrong end of the shell. The key turned the plug just fine until the screw was fully tightened. Am more careful now about which end of the shell I remove the plug from.