Bilock Cylinder

[minifhncc]

I actually like the older style keys better than the new ones. They fit onto the key ring better and take up less space. I wonder why they chose the new design...

[lockr]

I actually like the older style keys better than the new ones. They fit onto the key ring better and take up less space. I wonder why they chose the new design...

One of my biggest complains about Bilock is that aesthetically, their keys are absolutely hideous. I don't really care for either style (old or new), but I had the new style key on my keyring for a few months and it was very unpleasant - the keys are so large they create a lot of what seems to me as unnecessary bulk. I eventually removed the plastic grip and used the key plain but that looks even worse. As someone had mentioned at one point in these forums - you gotta be proud of the keys you carry.

The other complaint I have about the keys is that they're fairly sharp and sticking your hand into your jacket pocket to grab out your keys often leads to an uncomfortable scrape or even in one case a minor cut. I tried smoothing out the edges and points a little with sandpaper which helped a little, but it's still a long way from perfect.

I know Bilock always touts the key design in their literature but imho the design is inferior. These aren't entirely my personal opinions, my wife (who happens to be Australian) refuses to allow me to put Bilocks on our house simply because she doesn't want a Bilock key on her keyring for the aforementioned reasons.

My 0.2c ... =)

[GWiens2001]

While I may agree on the aesthetics of the keys, I have always been fascinated by the locking mechanism itself. This was the first sidebar lock I was aware of (barring GM's sidebar disc tumblers), and the novel (to me at the time) high security lock captured my imagination. Being in my teens, I could not afford one. Still have never had one, since I can't see spending the money on a lock that will not secure anything, and I have yet to find a used one for sale on eBay. Or anywhere else, for that matter. Funny, I can find nearly any other lock for sale used somewhere.

Anyway, my 8-year-old son has started to show an interest in locks... in fact, on Sunday, all on his own without any help from me, he studied some pics I took of a warded lock I had disassembled, studied his key to his own warded lock, got some baling wire and tools, cut and shaped it, and ... actually picked his first lock! not just once, but about 30 times as he got the hang of it. My wife is not exactly as thrilled as he is, but I sure am proud of him. Anyway, he is interested in spies and high security locks, particularly the Mul-T-Lock and the Bilock. I want to get him a used Bilock for a reward. He can play with my MTL any time he likes, but I think he'd love to have a Bilock before Daddy. That is a reward he could sink his teeth into.

[minifhncc]

These aren't entirely my personal opinions, my wife (who happens to be Australian) refuses to allow me to put Bilocks on our house simply because she doesn't want a Bilock key on her keyring for the aforementioned reasons.

What locks do you have on your house, out of curiosity?

[lockr]

These aren't entirely my personal opinions, my wife (who happens to be Australian) refuses to allow me to put Bilocks on our house simply because she doesn't want a Bilock key on her keyring for the aforementioned reasons.

What locks do you have on your house, out of curiosity?

A knockoff Kwikset KIK and deadbolt with 3 pins

I know it sounds counter-productive when I have a significant number of high security locks in my collection, but if someone wanted to break in all they'd have to do is smash a window. I doubt that a Bilock or Abloy would make much difference at all to the security of my place, I guess apart eliminating the possibility of someone bumping my locks. But just in case anyone is completely apalled at my sacreligious views on locks and security, I do have a pair of Schlage B660 deadbolts / Everest cylinders waiting to be installed. As soon as I find some free time =)

Still have never had one, since I can't see spending the money on a lock that will not secure anything, and I have yet to find a used one for sale on eBay. Or anywhere else, for that matter. Funny, I can find nearly any other lock for sale used somewhere.

I know what you mean, I looked for a Bilock for awhile but eventually I just gave up and bought one new. I really don't know the reason why they don't show up on the used market. I asked a locksmith in Sydney (super nice guy by the way, I chatted with him for over half an hour) about Bilocks and if he knew where I could get any used ones from but he said it's pretty uncommon for used ones to show up. He did say that he'd serviced a number of high traffic buildings (eg apartments) where the front door Bilock had failed and it was because of his experience with their reliability that he didn't recommend them. Oh and they are overpriced. But that's a whole different story...

Anyway, he is interested in spies and high security locks, particularly the Mul-T-Lock and the Bilock. I want to get him a used Bilock for a reward. He can play with my MTL any time he likes, but I think he'd love to have a Bilock before Daddy. That is a reward he could sink his teeth into.

What about one of the Bilock cutaways that SecuritySnobs sells? Alternatively if you're looking for something practical, a Bilock retrofit KIK seems to run for around $100. At least that way you could pick and choose your application (eg, retrofit it into a padlock or deadbolt or something) so it has some use. My Bilock just sits on the shelf with the rest of my locks looking pretty =)

[GWiens2001]

At $180, the cutaway will have to wait. Too bad, because my son would LOVE to have one, so he can see exactly how it operates. For years, his teachers have been calling him the "Little Engineer". He is DEFINATELY my boy! Have considered getting a KIK, but that is a lot of money when work is so slow. I have heard that one place I go online will be selling some new KIKs soon at a discounted rate. When I hear more, will post it here for those who want one.

[lockr]

At $180, the cutaway will have to wait. Too bad, because my son would LOVE to have one, so he can see exactly how it operates. For years, his teachers have been calling him the "Little Engineer". He is DEFINATELY my boy! Have considered getting a KIK, but that is a lot of money when work is so slow. I have heard that one place I go online will be selling some new KIKs soon at a discounted rate. When I hear more, will post it here for those who want one.

For sure, that's a ton'o'cash.. I'm in the same boat, it's hard to justify the big bucks for toys like these. In all fairness Bilock is a pretty expensive investment for locksmiths (apparently somewhere in the neighbourhood of $20k -- not sure where I read that) so naturally it's in their best interest to try and earn a return on their investment asap. I don't hold it against the locksmiths for that, I mean it's their business and they're making a living and that's totally fine. I just think that Bilock (the company) has priced these locks at a point that is unreasonably high, and as such I don't expect them to gain any serious traction outside of very specific markets.

As an interesting point (I don't know if i'd mentioned this before or not) but according to a number of people in Australia that i've talked to, Bilocks are largely being replaced with Abloy locks in high security applications. I think some of that is partly due to the early buzz around Bilocks being as "unpickable" and then later questions arising about the actual security of these locks in practice. I'm guessing that in applications where cost isn't an issue and security is paramount, the person(s) responsible for making such a decision would opt for the more secure lock based on available information.

At any rate, my choice for a home lock would be "cool" or "unusual" (both Abloy and Bilock fit this criteria) over any percieved or actual security these locks would offer. Another interesting story I'll share is when the place I worked at was broken into. It was an after-hours secured facility (he just walked in with someone else) and the office was on an upper floor. The doors were typical classy office types (wood with a large glass panel) and secured with a generic deadbolt. Hardly high security; but the guy that broke in didn't even touch the lock. He just used a screwdriver to jimmy the door; i'd be willing he had it open in 5 seconds. That experience taught me to place a higher priority on the physical security of the facility (eg door) than the actual lock itself because most burglars are opportunistic and will aim for the easy targets. (Of course, i'm not suggesting the lock should be neglected in any way)

But anyway, yes absolutely, please share if you hear of any screaming deals on Bilocks! I would love to get my hands on some affordable Bilock KIK cylinders to play with.

[GWiens2001]

Will do. Tell you more when i can.

[lunchb0x]

regarding the key heads, the biggest problem I have with them and which is a pretty stupid move by Bi-Lock is where the hole is for the key ring. With the old triangular keys the blade part of the key came loose after a while and detached from the key head, this was really good for Defence places that used the keys, it defeated the point of the expensive key watches when you can easily remove the key blade from the head. The new keys, there is now a hole for the key ring that goes through the key blade but there is also one through the head, I haven't seen anyone use the one though the blade unless they have previously had key blades go missing on the older heads.

I used to really like Bi-Lock as that was all that I was installing for many years, then I discovered Protec

[globallockytoo]

I actually like the older style keys better than the new ones. They fit onto the key ring better and take up less space. I wonder why they chose the new design...

One of my biggest complains about Bilock is that aesthetically, their keys are absolutely hideous. I don't really care for either style (old or new), but I had the new style key on my keyring for a few months and it was very unpleasant - the keys are so large they create a lot of what seems to me as unnecessary bulk. I eventually removed the plastic grip and used the key plain but that looks even worse. As someone had mentioned at one point in these forums - you gotta be proud of the keys you carry.

The other complaint I have about the keys is that they're fairly sharp and sticking your hand into your jacket pocket to grab out your keys often leads to an uncomfortable scrape or even in one case a minor cut. I tried smoothing out the edges and points a little with sandpaper which helped a little, but it's still a long way from perfect.

I know Bilock always touts the key design in their literature but imho the design is inferior. These aren't entirely my personal opinions, my wife (who happens to be Australian) refuses to allow me to put Bilocks on our house simply because she doesn't want a Bilock key on her keyring for the aforementioned reasons.

My 0.2c ... =)

Interesting point of view. In actuallity, the keys is one of the strongest selling points to many customers, but personal preference is just that - personal. I am a Bilock dealer and I have sold and installed a number of systems with most clients liking the keys a great deal. Yes the keys are bulky. Yes they can and do tear holes in your pockets. But many clients dont seem to mind and appreciate that it is a good looking and above all else....very secure product. keys are totally restricted to the point of virtually unduplicatable (without significant and time consuming efforts).

I have sold systems to aged care facilities, who like the large plastic heads particularly because they are ergonomically designed and are large enough for arthritically challenged people to use easily.

I am quoting a new system on Monday for a church in fact, who were referred by another church that i installed about 5 years ago. they contacted me because they like the look of the keys.

[lockr]

Interesting point of view. In actuallity, the keys is one of the strongest selling points to many customers, but personal preference is just that - personal. I am a Bilock dealer and I have sold and installed a number of systems with most clients liking the keys a great deal. Yes the keys are bulky. Yes they can and do tear holes in your pockets. But many clients dont seem to mind and appreciate that it is a good looking and above all else....very secure product. keys are totally restricted to the point of virtually unduplicatable (without significant and time consuming efforts).

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually a big fan of Bilock. All locking systems have shortcomings and Bilock thankfully has very few; I was merely pointing out some of my grievances with an otherwise well designed system. Your post does touch on some of the other points however. I won't go into detail as I'm sure that would violate the forum rules, but suffice to say I was surprised to discover the security of Bilocks was significantly less than I had originally been led to believe. And as is mentioned in the paper that datagram co-authored, the key design that Bilock uses as one of their biggest selling points (specifically the lack of key blanks) actually doesn't really pose much of a challenge to anyone who really wanted to make a duplicate.

But it all really comes back to why someone would chose Bilock over a more traditional lock. I have always believed that Bilock security is oversold, and they're too expensive for what they are. Is a Bilock a high security lock? By definition, yes. Can it be defeated? yes. Is it more difficult to defeat than a quality 6-pin tumbler lock? yes. Is it worth the significantly higher cost? That depends. The bottom line is that raising the bar enough to deter a would-be attacker from attacking such a lock and to resort to an alternative entry method (eg smashing a window or cutting a hole through the wall) should define the choice a locking system; which hopefully would prove to be enough of a deterrant that the intruder is discouraged from making an attack against your lock and facility entirely and seek an easier target. Everything else comes down to aesthetics, cost and personal preference.

On the subject of the Bilock paper that datagram co-authored, has anyone heard if Bilock has released the updated version that is described in section 5?

[globallockytoo]

As i said, it's all about personal choice and perceived security. Any lock, irrespective of it's make and high security value can be defeated by a keen enough attacker. Bilock may not have the best looking keys in your opinion, but one of the reasons it sells is because a significant number of customers really do like the design of the key. Some perceive it to be a "cool factor".

The facts remain that any mechanical key system is able to be defeated with destructive entry. There are not many products that deter a rotary pick. The point is though, that Bilock make an excellent quality product that crosses over multiple different brands of hardware. They are not focused solely on their own hardware line like some others. The color coded heads and ergonomic feel appeal to a large number of consumers. The radically different keyway appeals to consumers too. The fact that the product is one of the first 100% bump proof and virtually pick proof mechanical key cylinders available, combined with protected release keyblanks and special machinery required to produce keys, seems to appeal to a significant number of discerning customers. As far as security perception, especially with the Quick Change Core, the product has been tested by multiple authorities worldwide and has surpassed many of the stringent standards tests.

A determined attacker will rarely worry about any key system. If they want in, they'll find a way. But it is the job of locksmiths to provide their clients with products that slow down a would be attacker enough so they will go somewhere else. Likewise, an alarm system is specifically designed to scare an attacker away, while not offering any kind of physical or mechanical protection of any kind.

As to cost perception, R&D is worth something, no? Precision manufacturing has costs too. Why would any company create any product if they couldnt profit from it? At least with Bilock, the quality is up there with the best systems on the market. The product lasts and performs well above many customers expectations.

[lockr]

The facts remain that any mechanical key system is able to be defeated with destructive entry. There are not many products that deter a rotary pick. The point is though, that Bilock make an excellent quality product that crosses over multiple different brands of hardware. They are not focused solely on their own hardware line like some others. The color coded heads and ergonomic feel appeal to a large number of consumers. The radically different keyway appeals to consumers too.

Correct, i'm not debating those points. I know a lot of people i've shown my Bilock to have been completely floored and have asked where they can buy them for their house or businesses. It's a cool design, and I can definitely see why people would like them. It is of course a matter of preference so there's not really much to debate here.

In terms of not being focused on their own hardware, I have to agree. I love retrofit locks and being able to fit a Bilock into virtually any locking application is very awesome. I give Bilock kudos for that. If only more lock manufacturers followed their example.

The fact that the product is one of the first 100% bump proof and virtually pick proof mechanical key cylinders available, combined with protected release keyblanks and special machinery required to produce keys, seems to appeal to a significant number of discerning customers.

Bump proof? yes. Pick proof? No. Virtually pick proof? No.

With practice and skill, Bilocks can be picked relatively easily, and fairly quickly. I won't go into detail but it IS absolutely possible to pick them. What really gets me is that the Bilock North America catalog states right at the top of the title page that these locks are "Bump and pick proof". As far as being "pick proof" that is absolutely incorrect. More commonly, I hear that Bilock is "pick resistant" which is a much more accurate statement. Regardless, I feel that statements like this are largely misleading to the consumer, as they are often mis-interpreted as "pick proof" (which implies an absolute - eg cannot be picked - which is impossible for a working mechanical lock). If it can be opened with a key, it can be picked.

As far as security perception, especially with the Quick Change Core, the product has been tested by multiple authorities worldwide and has surpassed many of the stringent standards tests.

Herein lies another of my complaints with Bilock - the "Master Keyed QC core security flaw". The QC system is excellent, I really like the mechanical simplicity of Bilock QC and if I was going to secure my house or place of business with Bilock, I would definitely go with the QC option. It's just so convenient. However if that QC system is master keyed (as so many are) it opens up an enormous security hole. I think Bilock pretends the issue doesn't exist as they seem to place a large deal of faith in their key control system (eg availability of blanks) - and assume that since modifying a user key into a control key leaves some pretty obvious forensic evidence (eg, it would be easy to pinpoint the perpetrator). However the truth is that the lack of key blanks won't deter a sophisticated attacker with a little know-how and access to a couple of basic materials and tools from creating a duplicate key. Once a master keyed QC core is in the hands of an unauthorized user, the whole system is compromised.

As to cost perception, R&D is worth something, no? Precision manufacturing has costs too. Why would any company create any product if they couldnt profit from it? At least with Bilock, the quality is up there with the best systems on the market. The product lasts and performs well above many customers expectations.

Yes, I see your point. Commercial ventures exist to make money. It takes a lot of money to design and engineer a product and set up the necessary manufacturing, not to mention sales, advertising, ongoing R&D and security analysis. But i'm sure they're making a mint off of the product. I just feel that the cost of the Bilocks is too high and restricts their adoption. I like the technology and I would like to see Bilocks used more universally, but at their current price point, I just don't see them gaining a lot of traction outside of very specific markets.

I don't know if it's related to the comparitavely high income that Australians enjoy vs North America that factors into it as well? I know that every time I go to Australia i'm shocked how much more everything costs, but i'm told it's because the average income for Australians is higher.

Keep in mind i'm not debating whether or not high quality locks should cost more than their lesser counterparts. I only feel that for the marginal improvement in security gained from going with Bilock over say Schlage, Best, Falcon, Arrow, Lockwood, etc. makes it difficult to justify the exponentially greater cost. Bilock is well designed, nicely manufactured (although their tolerances could probably be tightened up somewhat), and an all around quality system.

If I was a locksmith I would have no problems recommending them to customers, despite the cost. It's a great system and I don't want to come across sounding as if I don't like them. My only concern is when those who are selling them (yes, locksmiths) to the consumer make untrue or inaccurate statements about their security and/or omit details. I believe that a lot of consumers are sold the Bilock system on it's security and I realize that locksmiths are in business to make money, but there's an ethical dilemma when their customers are led to believe (told outright or implied) that these locks are more secure than they really are.

[globallockytoo]

how many have you picked. were they master keyed or not? I have worked with them for over 20 years and picking them is difficult at best. I am not doubting your ability to pick them, but when you consider that any lock's pickability rating is based on average times, Bilock measures up well in comparison to other products. And face it, a burglar is not likely to waste the time to try to pick a Bilock lock in the field preferring a more destructive entry method. This in itself gives a pretty good reason to invest in the technology and the perceived security (security as time necessary to defeat a lock product).

Yes they are advertised as virtually pick proof and they are not. However, if you compare the times necessary for picking a Bilock to other similar types of cylinders from other manufacturers, then the vitually pick proof inferrence is reasonable.

I have provided odd cylinders to different members here and they agreed that the cylinders are very challenging. There was even some guy who posted a YT video about him picking a masterkeyed Bilock cylinder. Now, if you have an existing key to work from and know the depths of the tumblers, you are way ahead of the game. And if you have a key, why would you pick the lock anyway (except for sport)?

You do understand the reasons that Bilock is very difficult to pick, right?

Perhaps we should take this discussion to PM?

[minifhncc]

That does lead to the question though... Why don't Bilock master pins have false gates? Obviously it's not possible for the pin with 4 slots (forget which number it is), but surely it's possible with the 2 and 3 ones...