Bilock Cylinder

[lunchb0x]

That does lead to the question though... Why don't Bilock master pins have false gates? Obviously it's not possible for the pin with 4 slots (forget which number it is), but surely it's possible with the 2 and 3 ones...

A Bi-Lock pin with all 4 depths is a K.

One issue that we have with a shopping centre that uses QCC is that the cores fall out, they are used that much that within a couple of years there is enough wear for the cores to fall out, some how Bi-Lock managed to get approved for Government use???

[lockr]

how many have you picked. were they master keyed or not? I have worked with them for over 20 years and picking them is difficult at best. I am not doubting your ability to pick them, but when you consider that any lock's pickability rating is based on average times, Bilock measures up well in comparison to other products. And face it, a burglar is not likely to waste the time to try to pick a Bilock lock in the field preferring a more destructive entry method. This in itself gives a pretty good reason to invest in the technology and the perceived security (security as time necessary to defeat a lock product).

Yes they are advertised as virtually pick proof and they are not. However, if you compare the times necessary for picking a Bilock to other similar types of cylinders from other manufacturers, then the vitually pick proof inferrence is reasonable.

I have provided odd cylinders to different members here and they agreed that the cylinders are very challenging. There was even some guy who posted a YT video about him picking a masterkeyed Bilock cylinder. Now, if you have an existing key to work from and know the depths of the tumblers, you are way ahead of the game. And if you have a key, why would you pick the lock anyway (except for sport)?

You do understand the reasons that Bilock is very difficult to pick, right?

Perhaps we should take this discussion to PM?

I think you're over reacting to my position here. I don't want to get into a conversation about picking but rather debate the features and shortcomings of Bilocks. I only said they CAN be picked and with practice and skill, they could be picked fairly quickly. I don't think that takes away from the lock's security in the slightest; as I had stated earlier I believe that most burglars aren't going to bother to attempt to pick even the most insecure lock on the market, the only time something like this is a concern is in an application where you are trying to thwart a sophisticated attacker in a very specific situation.

I understand that in your position as a Bilock dealer you've made a substantial investment in the product and so naturally you want to be able to tell your customers and potential customers that Bilock is the most secure system they could invest in. You have to believe in the product that you're selling. I don't fault you for that, if you believe that they're extremely hard to pick and there are no vulnerabilities with the lock you can truthfully tell people this. The truth is that Bilock is a very secure system. They are harder to pick than a standard pin tumbler lock. They're bump proof. They are very well designed. Aesthetically they're unique and many people like the look of them. These are all good selling points. So why do people need to make claims that untimately result in the consumer believing that they are unpickable?

Perhaps it's Bilock's general lack of market penetration (outside of Australia) has kept them somewhat below the radar in the locksport community and thus distanced from any real scrutiny. As a result of this, the security of Bilocks have never been challenged on a large scale and therefore it's easy to say that these locks have never been defeated in a controlled setting with official observers. It's easy to discredit people who claim to have picked these locks (in particular on YT) and equally frusterating are people who claim to have picked them but are working with either heavily masterkeyed versions, missing pins or don't show their work (eg a complete tear-down showing the sliders afterwards). Perhaps Bilock doesn't want to witness anyone picking a Bilock - it's not in their best interest. They can maintain their position that they haven't "personally witnessed Bilocks being picked open without a key" as long as they want if they don't provide the opportunity and venue.

Now I can't imagine Bilock doing this, but let's say "what if" they supplied 500 standard, non masterkeyed, differently pinned Bilocks to the locksport community, some with and others without keys? Ok, immediately they'd earn a huge amount of respect. But it would also result in one of two things - either a lot of folks talking about how secure these locks are, or, a lot of videos and articles about actually compromising them. I don't think they care either way and I doubt they would even remotely consider doing such a thing. As I said before, it's not in their best interest - or at least what they percieve to be their best interest. They're happy with the status quo, and the security perception these locks carry is worth more to their bottom line than the security that these locks offer in practice.

If you want to talk about details that can't be discussed in the open forums, please do PM me. I hope there's no hard feelings, I firmly believe in my position on challenging the security perception of these locks. I also hope that this thread hopefully ignites some greater interest in Bilock within the locksport community and fuels debate on it's advantages and shortcomings. And hopefully Bilock also continues to make strides towards addressing the shortcomings and improves on the design of this great system.

[lockr]

That does lead to the question though... Why don't Bilock master pins have false gates? Obviously it's not possible for the pin with 4 slots (forget which number it is), but surely it's possible with the 2 and 3 ones...

Good question. It definitely seems possible that a false gate could be included on some of the masters. Perhaps it's just a production thing - eg they use a jig to drill the pins and the masters are the same jig as drilling the false gales but drill it to the full depth? Just a guess.

One issue that we have with a shopping centre that uses QCC is that the cores fall out, they are used that much that within a couple of years there is enough wear for the cores to fall out, some how Bi-Lock managed to get approved for Government use???

Is this the old style FG or the new FG/NG system? Certification and approval is very imprecise. Just because a system is tested, certified and approved doesn't mean it holds up in the long run, it's hard to simulate and emulate real world conditions years in the future. Certification just sets a baseline. I have heard similar comments on Bilock from a number of different people (consumers and non-dealer locksmiths). Perhaps it's because Bilock is Australian they are preferred by the government because they are Australian made and presumably have a more reputable chain of trust? Just thinking out loud here.

[datagram]

There's not enough room for false gates on mastered pins, though the "government" version uses a slightly different style which has double false gates (they look like 8's).

dg

[lockr]

There's not enough room for false gates on mastered pins, though the "government" version uses a slightly different style which has double false gates (they look like 8's).

dg

Ah, makes sense. But what about in the A (1+2) or a F (3+4) master pins? Presumably there would be enough room to sneak in a false gate on those?

[globallockytoo]

lockr,

you have cleverly avoided the question. How many have you had success picking? How many have you had success picking without knowing the combination or having a working key present?

yes I have picked a few. They are not easy and I work far more often with them than many others.

If you have picked them, then you have a credible frame of reference...

We arent discussing how to pick them or why they are so difficult or easy.

the security perception of any product or device can be questioned by skeptics. I learned a long time ago, you cant please all the people all the time and only some of the people some of the time.

[lockr]

lockr,

you have cleverly avoided the question. How many have you had success picking? How many have you had success picking without knowing the combination or having a working key present?

yes I have picked a few. They are not easy and I work far more often with them than many others.

If you have picked them, then you have a credible frame of reference...

We arent discussing how to pick them or why they are so difficult or easy.

the security perception of any product or device can be questioned by skeptics. I learned a long time ago, you cant please all the people all the time and only some of the people some of the time.

I was only trying to avoid talking about picking, not to avoid the question. As i've stated several times in previous posts, I was hoping that other facets of the Bilock system could be discussed (pros and cons) without talking about picking.

The answer is one - the only one I have. And yes, of course I know the key combination, that was unavoidable. And no, it wasn't easy for me. But then again i'm not exactly good at this sport. But if someone with my limited skills can do it, you can see why I ask the question - why is it so often claimed that these locks are "pick proof" or "virtually pick proof"...?

So anyway, now that we've cleared the air on that point - do you have a response to any of my other comments?

[FarmerFreak]

you have cleverly avoided the question. How many have you had success picking? How many have you had success picking without knowing the combination or having a working key present?

I know you weren't asking me, but I'm going to answer anyways.

I've picked five of them, all blind, I have never seen the keys bittings (technicality: I can't say that I have never known the keys bittings on one of the locks as I believe I correctly decoded it by feel after it was picked). Nor have I ever even held a bilock key, any, ever. Oh, and I know for certain that two of them were not masterkeyed. I doubt the other three were, but it is possible. I also know that they are all keyed differently. One of them is an older one with only 8 and 1/2 pins, the others were all 12 and 1/2 pins.

I still have to agree with what you've been saying here. Picking time is comparable to say Assa, ok maybe a little faster than assa, but it takes longer than medeco which takes longer than primus.. Then again, if a bilock was heavily masterkeyed without the special pins datagram mentions, it would probably be comparable to primus..

Now that all that's out of the way, the key and lock design is pretty cool. But personally I don't like big keys, because of that I would avoid using bilock. But that's just my personal preference. (shutters at the thought of ever getting a newer car with a humungous key..)

[GWiens2001]

Farmer,

As I understand it, you don't need too many keys.

My respect to you for your skills. And the responsible way in which you use them.

Gordon

[globallockytoo]

In answer to your question about false gates on master pins. I dont believe they are necessary because it is rare to find a system that only uses all master pins in a cylinder. There are often 1-3 separate pins that will be non-mastered and have the false gates.

@freak......how long would you say the average time to pick these cylinders was? If they were masterpinned, I too think they would be considerably easier than non-mastered cylinders.

As to the "pick proof" or "virtually pick proof" claims......I think they are justified in using the terms because most authorities (gazetted industrial testing laboratories) use a pre-determined set of guidelines (time-factor) to determine if a cylinder is able to be picked in a suitable time frame.

All similar testing regimes would apply similar principles to their processes to determine any products viability compared to other products in the same genre.

If a determined person manages to pick the cylinder in question and is not constrained by suitable time limits or real-world environments, then perhaps the entire guidelines would need to be rewritten for all products, no?
Could you imagine the expenses of that?

Again, you are not going to please everyone, all the time, but I think the application of the term "virtually pick Proof" is apt in consideration of real world scenarios, weather and uninterrupted time to work on the lock in question.

[globallockytoo]

I believe that a lot of consumers are sold the Bilock system on it's security and I realize that locksmiths are in business to make money, but there's an ethical dilemma when their customers are led to believe (told outright or implied) that these locks are more secure than they really are.

Actually, in more surveys and tests, many more consumers are sold on the key control aspects and the color coding and ergonomic key heads. I dont think that the greater majority of customers are particularly worried about the high security factors, even when it comes to any other brand of high security keyway.

[lunchb0x]

Is this the old style FG or the new FG/NG system? Certification and approval is very imprecise. Just because a system is tested, certified and approved doesn't mean it holds up in the long run, it's hard to simulate and emulate real world conditions years in the future. Certification just sets a baseline. I have heard similar comments on Bilock from a number of different people (consumers and non-dealer locksmiths). Perhaps it's because Bilock is Australian they are preferred by the government because they are Australian made and presumably have a more reputable chain of trust? Just thinking out loud here.

They are NG. The main reason that the locks are flogged is because Security at the Shopping centre where it is installed are constantly changing the cores around a couple of times a week, so it is a bit excessive and not really what QCC is designed for. It shows though that on high use locks the chances are higher of being able to pull the core out.

[FarmerFreak]

In answer to your question about false gates on master pins. I dont believe they are necessary because it is rare to find a system that only uses all master pins in a cylinder. There are often 1-3 separate pins that will be non-mastered and have the false gates.

@freak......how long would you say the average time to pick these cylinders was? If they were masterpinned, I too think they would be considerably easier than non-mastered cylinders.

Average time is somewhere around 20-30 minutes. However, if I only had to navigate through three or less false gates. I'd estimate a time around 5 minutes.

I doubt you'd want to do this, but if you were willing to send me a masterkeyed lock with three or less non-mastered pins. I'm game to record it on video out of the package and we can find out. And then of course I would ship it back to you. I know, I know it's not quite real world conditions since it would be in my vice.. (my last video was a masterkeyed emhart with all interlocking pins, picking time: 1 minute 9 seconds )

I still agree with you about the time it takes to pick one of these. Unless the lock is heavily masterkeyed (which is always a problem regardless of brand), Bilocks are harder to pick than many other high security locks.

[GWiens2001]

Got a link to the Emhart video? BTW... My son and I both got a real kick out of your video of 'piggy-picking' the Schlage.

Gordon

[lockr]

As to the "pick proof" or "virtually pick proof" claims......I think they are justified in using the terms because most authorities (gazetted industrial testing laboratories) use a pre-determined set of guidelines (time-factor) to determine if a cylinder is able to be picked in a suitable time frame.

As i've said before, I still feel that this is a misleading statement - to the typical consumer, you say "Pick Proof" and they hear "Cannot be picked".

I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree that in practice - eg a would-be burglar attacking a lock on a door in use - there's no way that they are going to waste the time trying to pick one of these. Or any other decent lock for that matter - which is /exactly/what i've been saying all along: Once the security of a given locking system exceeeds a certain threshold, the would-be burglar would then seek an alternative entry method. But using this reasoning as the basis to claim that a lock is "unpickable" is a gross exaggeration of the truth, no?

In the latter half of that statement, I presume you're referring to UL 437?

Would you consider every lock that is certified UL 437 to be "pick proof"?

I have nothing against standards, or UL 437 in particular. As datagram said:

Having a security rating does not imply that the lock is “high-security”, just that it passed whatever tests the specific rating requires. This has been a source of confusion lately, especially when we consider UL 437, a popular lock security rating from Underwriter's Laboratories. Many people associate UL 437 with “high-security,” but there is really nothing that makes this so. As Marc Tobias likes to say, it is just a “high-er” security standard.

Standards are useful to establish a security baseline for a particular lock, but that's pretty much where it ends.

Actually, in more surveys and tests, many more consumers are sold on the key control aspects and the color coding and ergonomic key heads. I dont think that the greater majority of customers are particularly worried about the high security factors, even when it comes to any other brand of high security keyway.

I'm curious, which tests and/or surveys are you citing? Are the results publically available?