Locksmith drilling a Kwikset??!!

[cledry]

being unable to compromise a kwikset knobset in under 10 minutes without damage is unforgiveable for anyone who claims to be a locksmith, heck anyone fullstop! there are so many simple and easy bypasses for any knobset that take less than 10 minutes to perform, it is obvious that whoever this person was, they were not a locksmith. Drill or not.....there is absolutely no excuse to spend that long on any lock.

I disagree.

Usually they are not very difficult to pick or bypass. Sometimes they can be a real pain. Sometimes the situation and circumstances make a lot of difference in how simple it is to get something done.

I've been making a living at this game for longer than some of you have been alive.

I've drilled Kwikset knobs before because I could not get them to pick.

In the real world, stuff happens.

Guess ,you havent heard or seen or used an A1 puller. Pull the cylinder and expose the locking spindle.
aside......an airwedge and plastic card is enough.

That only works on the older Kwiksets, not the current ones and not on lever locks only knobs. I've had a few Winston and Titans give me trouble and your A-1 won't help you there. Air wedge might get you enough room if it is just a knob but not if it is a deadbolt. Nobody likes to drill a lock, especially these inexpensive locks, but time is money.

[2octops]

I have 2 of the A-1 pullers and thought they were the greatest thing since sliced butter when they came out.

I used it several times and then broke off a leg that held the cylinder in place on a customers oil rubbed bronze (or whatever they call that funky brown crap) and all I had to replace with with was US3. Then the knock off's came out that have the spring loaded retaining tabs (cheap reo locks) and you can not tell them from the originals. The cylinder starts to pull, then breaks your key blade off in the cylinder.

So yeah, I've heard of the A-1 puller.

[globallockytoo]

the OP didnt indicate which model the kwikset lock was.....so your point is moot.

[globallockytoo]

the OP didnt indicate which model the kwikset lock was.....so your point is moot.

And he indicated it was a knobset.

But. yes you are quite right, that noit every lock will have the same successes. i know. i have been in the industry nigh on 30 years too. Sometimes i have to drill a Kwikset too (rarely) but i always try to find another method first - like impressioning or bumping or loiding the latch.

When it comes to a deadbolt - Yes time is money.....but surely you have written that into your labor and attendance prices.

[cledry]

the OP didnt indicate which model the kwikset lock was.....so your point is moot.

And he indicated it was a knobset.

But. yes you are quite right, that noit every lock will have the same successes. i know. i have been in the industry nigh on 30 years too. Sometimes i have to drill a Kwikset too (rarely) but i always try to find another method first - like impressioning or bumping or loiding the latch.

When it comes to a deadbolt - Yes time is money.....but surely you have written that into your labor and attendance prices.

We include 10 minutes of labor in an opening price. Anything more than 10 minutes is losing money. I haven't even tried to impression a Kwikset knob. I imagine with the flat pins and the knob moving up and down it probably isn't cost effective. I will impression something that is expensive or not possible to replace, but really why bother on a Kwikset that costs perhaps $10-$15?

[Evan]

We include 10 minutes of labor in an opening price. Anything more than 10 minutes is losing money. I haven't even tried to impression a Kwikset knob. I imagine with the flat pins and the knob moving up and down it probably isn't cost effective. I will impression something that is expensive or not possible to replace, but really why bother on a Kwikset that costs perhaps $10-$15?

A Tylo Knob from Kwikset retails for $9.99 at the box stores, a single cylinder deadbolt also retails for $9.99... I think I have seen 4-packs with 2x Knobs and 2x deadbolts which retail for $35.99-$40...

Those are retail prices, so the list price per unit on a case of such locks MUST be lower... Why even bother trying to pick a lock which sells for less than $10 and has such a crappy pot-metal cylinder ?

If you know what you are doing you can destructively enter the old Kwikset Knob, remove it from the door, re-key to match the rest of the house a new one and install it in under 10 minutes unless you have one of those "over-the-shoulder" customers pestering you with questions...

Do you really want to have to deal with even the possibility of freebie call backs on a lock "that worked just fine until you picked it open" on a unit that costs under $10 retail when a service call fee is $60-$80 depending on where you are located just because you want to try to save and reuse the customer's old junk lock set ?

~~ Evan

[cledry]

That is true Evan but the old Tylo is becoming rarer these days. The box stores are selling mostly Smart Key Kwiksets.

BTW, wholesale is the same as you are finding them retail. There is no profit in these unless you can sell the knob for $20.

[globallockytoo]

That is true Evan but the old Tylo is becoming rarer these days. The box stores are selling mostly Smart Key Kwiksets.

BTW, wholesale is the same as you are finding them retail. There is no profit in these unless you can sell the knob for $20.

Hence the reason that locksmiths should be selling products other than the Big Box sells.
Differentiating yourselves in the market is what separates you from another hardware store and gives customers a reason to shop with you rather than them.

Sell products like, LSDA, Cal-Royal etc. Brands not found at the Big Box. Sell it for more than they will, because often the warranties are longer/better. Wherever possible, move away from standard keyways to less well known ones or ones with odd shaped keyheads so to confuse the hardware stores and get customers back to you for business.

Looking for quality products? Think about selling the brands that the Big Box dont and you will become known as a source for quality.

It is high time that locksmiths took it upon themselves to rebuild the trust of the market and fight against the tyranny of the Brand name manufacturers who have done their level best to bypass the locksmiths over the last 20+ years.

[2octops]

I agree with that....

BUT....

Some customers want something that matches all the other knobs in their house. If everything is Tylo, then a ball or plymouth knob is just going to look funky especially if there are other knobs close.

There are some that don't care, but there are some that do.

Those we try to upsell complete replacement of everything and when they don't want to change every knob in their house, we sell them something that matches.

Yes, we get $27.50 for a Tylo and $40 for a 660 plus rekeying to match existing locks (or rekeying everything else) and we charge for each key we cut also.

[globallockytoo]

as an analogy....a customer walks into the caryard looking at that new corvette in blue......walks up to the car salesperson and says, "do you have it in red?"

Instead of saying, "No only blue" the car salesman says, "do you want it in red?"

Never tell the customer they cant have it how they want it. Tell them they can have it and then show and explain the better alternatives and your recommendations. You cant make that sale if you dont display to them your belief in the product and why your recommendations might better suit them. Offer them your alternative at a good price and then offer them what they asked about at a competitive price. Sometimes the customer will choose the same tired old option they had before but more often the customer will update. You have made the sale, made your company look good and the customer happy.

If you intend to sell the same stuff everyone else sells, then either have the best price in town or some gimmick that makes them choose you over the big box.

I can sell the same elcheapo garbage that the big box sells. But will the customer come back to me for parts or extras or service? There is no guarantee on that because they can go to where it is convenient - not my store necessarily. This is why locksmiths need to offer the products that the big stores do not. This is why by selling these other products, customers will come back to you and not the big box. As a locksmith, it is your job to get them in the door, the first time and then give them a good reason for coming back more often. This is how you make money and have a successful business.


So they want it keyed alike with their existing profile. Many of the brands that are lesser known also make their keyways similar to the brand name stuff. You can also buy other keyways from GMS or similar companies to allow conversion to their preferred keyway. Stop finding excuses why you shouldnt be steering customers toward your thinking and start finding methods to steer them to your ideas.

[Evan]

That is true Evan but the old Tylo is becoming rarer these days. The box stores are selling mostly Smart Key Kwiksets.

BTW, wholesale is the same as you are finding them retail. There is no profit in these unless you can sell the knob for $20.

@cledry:

I would agree that the Smart Key Kwiksets and the expensive decorative hardware are given places of prominence in the lock aisle at HD and Lowe's, yet there is one small space on the shelf at the bottom where if you bend down you can see that they still have boxes and boxes of the plain old Tylo knobs and single cylinder deadbolts...

I only ever use Kwikset products to replace an identical unit... I prefer locks which have real brass cylinders inside of them...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

It does seem that the big box stores can sell products more cheaply than locksmiths are able to...

Selling a Kwikset Tylo for 3x what the person could buy it for in the store themselves is insane... You need to put your profit earnings in the service call charge/install labor prices and NOT in any kind of mark-up on the locks themselves...

It seems that the big box stores earn their mark-up with other products, or buy in such quantities that they are getting 2x mark-up at the price they sell the products for... Save the standard mark-up for products which are of higher quality... The ones where you feel comfortable with the lock lasting through the warranty period in one piece with normal usage...

~~ Evan

[Eyes_Only]

Those are retail prices, so the list price per unit on a case of such locks MUST be lower... Why even bother trying to pick a lock which sells for less than $10 and has such a crappy pot-metal cylinder ?

If you know what you are doing you can destructively enter the old Kwikset Knob, remove it from the door, re-key to match the rest of the house a new one and install it in under 10 minutes unless you have one of those "over-the-shoulder" customers pestering you with questions...

Do you really want to have to deal with even the possibility of freebie call backs on a lock "that worked just fine until you picked it open" on a unit that costs under $10 retail when a service call fee is $60-$80 depending on where you are located just because you want to try to save and reuse the customer's old junk lock set ?

~~ Evan

I've never had that kind of issue with a Kwikset knob after doing a lockout job. It might happen if you rake the lock, but I SPP 99% of the time. The only time I have used a destructive method on a standard pin-tumbler Kwikset lock was when the plug was damaged after a break-in attempt.

How common is this problem in your area?

[Evan]

I've never had that kind of issue with a Kwikset knob after doing a lockout job. It might happen if you rake the lock, but I SPP 99% of the time. The only time I have used a destructive method on a standard pin-tumbler Kwikset lock was when the plug was damaged after a break-in attempt.

How common is this problem in your area?

Problems with old locks suddenly having "issues" after they are repaired ? Depends on how close you are to the ocean... Are you honestly telling me that you would risk your business reputation over a $10 throw-away Kwikset lock ? Remember that even if you repair a customer's lock for free when they call you to tell you it stopped working after you did something to it, they can still post comments about you on the internet describing how your original work failed... How long are you going to spend pulling it all apart and checking it to ensure that there is nothing wrong with it that could cause a call back within the guarantee period on a worn $10 lock...

Its the workman's rule of thumb, you were the last person to work on it, so it must be something you did which made it fail again... Just taking it apart and putting it back together again can disturb things inside which could conceivably fail after you have completed your service call to rekey...

~~ Evan

[Eyes_Only]

Problems with old locks suddenly having "issues" after they are repaired ? Depends on how close you are to the ocean... Are you honestly telling me that you would risk your business reputation over a $10 throw-away Kwikset lock ? Remember that even if you repair a customer's lock for free when they call you to tell you it stopped working after you did something to it, they can still post comments about you on the internet describing how your original work failed... How long are you going to spend pulling it all apart and checking it to ensure that there is nothing wrong with it that could cause a call back within the guarantee period on a worn $10 lock...

Its the workman's rule of thumb, you were the last person to work on it, so it must be something you did which made it fail again... Just taking it apart and putting it back together again can disturb things inside which could conceivably fail after you have completed your service call to rekey...

~~ Evan

If most of your customers are psychopaths, then I can see why you're hesitant to do anything on a Kwikset other than straight out replacement. Fortunately, situations where Kwikset pin-tumbler locks disintegrate the moment any locksmith touches them are not too common. A customer may also have their own reason for wanting to keep their existing locks. There also many customers who are weary of locksmiths who claim that these locks need replacement, whether they call us for a lockout, or a re-key job. They might see you and your company as a shady shop who is only interested in making sales.

If it is serviceable, I would service it. If I do notice anything that could cause a problem before I start working on it, I'll explain to the customer so that they can make an informed choice. This is one of the things that separates us from contractors, construction, and maintenance workers who don't have the experience to deal with the intricacies of lock work.