Do ICL curtain picks really work?

[crusaderman]

Last year I bought the ICL curtain pick set for 5.5 and 7 gauge key ways. I have tried and failed with both sizes on a number of BS Mortise curtain locks. Seems to me that in a lot of cases you need to turn the curtain round to about 12 o/clock before any tension force is exerted on the Bolt. Because a lot of levers can only be lifted from about the "8 to 10 o/clock" position (when turning in a clockwise direction), the curtain "wall" and groove in the tensioner block any access for the lifting wire to actually engage with said levers!

As the lifting wire/ pick needs to be engaged in the keyway simultaneously with the Tensioner at 6 o'clock, they both have to rotate 180 degrees to impose some tension, by which time the lifting wire has by-passed the lever lifting position/s.

I hope this is making some sense to you experienced lock-pickers out there.

I need to ask if these ICL picks only actually work on specific locks? As most of you know these Pick Sets are not cheap, and I'm now considering just flogging it off, as in all the jobs I've had so far (where the keys missing) have left me with the only option of drilling and picking.

Sorry to go on and apologies if this subject has already been covered but I am new to this great site and still finding my way round it.

Steve

[EmCee]

I have the ICL set. I don't know if they are better or worse than other makes; many say others are better and I would like to buy some (and probably will), but tbh, despite the prevalence of lever/detainer locks in the UK, 90% plus of jobs I attend involve cylinders so justifying the cost of more curtain picks isn't easy from a business standpoint. And of the jobs I have attended that involved lever locks, several had internal damage so picking wouldn't open them anyway.

So, all that said, yes they work. I've opened locks with them. I'm surprised you've had no success - have you practised with locks off the door?

Assuming that you use the correct gauge tension bar and the correct wire for the hand of lock, after rotating to the point of tension the tip of the wire should be free to turn back to reach the levers. Low levers can be a fiddle as you have to feed the tip underneath as you move through the pack. I only have the wires that came with the pick. For some makes of lock you might need different shaped wires which you can make with piano wire, but you'd need to know the lock, what prevents the standard wire from working and what shape a new wire should be in order to get around the problem.

Cheers...

[crusaderman]

EmCee

Thanks for your reply. Very useful. I did have some inkling that the wires might need some "tampering" with in order to lift the levers and will try out some of your suggestions.

Bought this set as I was curious as to how good / practical they are out in the field! I was also wondering why the trainer on my course, with over 20 years of experience, never mentioned these curtain picks, and mainly focused on `drill & pick/ kill bolt techniques. It would be good to be able to employ this pick set as a first option, so I will keep at it!

I take your point tho, as the majority of jobs I go to seem to involve cylinders, but then again as you know, a lot of the tools you have to carry with you never come out of the van!

Thanks again for your reply.

Steve

[mhole]

Steve, the trainer on your course focused on drilling as it can be taught on a realistic time frame, and yields results quickly. Picking blind will require a lot of practice and dedication before you're able to do it reliably, and this makes it a poor technique for teaching on a short course.

For many lockies, drill and pick is all you'll ever use, and there's nothing wrong with it, provided the customer is aware of how you plan to open their lock, and you know how to do it neatly and correctly. If on the other hand, you're doing a lot of open ups, as with warrant work, learning how to pick is essential, as it will save you time and money. A correctly performed drill and pick is very different from the 'swiss cheese' drill jobs you see cowboys perform.

Personally I can't justify the cost of a ton of mortice picking gear, and my abilities are not yet up to use in the field, so on the few mortice jobs I encounter, I drill and pick.

[crusaderman]

Hi mhole

Yes, I totally agree with what your saying. While it might impress the customer by putting on a show, these picks are for the experts! I was seeking what I thought might be a better alternative..and as a NEWBIE, I'm not yet proficient at D&P. In fact I've only had the one real job so far where the customer couldn't open his lock with the key....and in the end after a long D&P session, I finally had to go to the other side and kill the bolt.

[EmCee]

Hmm..I agree with mhole. I'm 'new' too, and at the time I started the trade, or the parts of it I came into contact with first, was moving to NDE. Until then, drilling was common and acceptable (and still is). As mhole says, drilling is not an unskilled operation - Swiss cheese patterns show complete lack of skill. In most cases one, or perhaps two, small neat holes within the footprint of the handleset are required. However, that means replacing the lock (in the vast majority of cases).

The fact that your trainer only taught drilling on lever locks is not necessarily a bad thing, although the NDE enthusiasts would disagree. However, on my course I was taught lever picking and although mhole is right about what can be taught in a realistic timeframe, it is certainly possible to be taught the basics of the technique - then, like everything else, it's down to practice and gradually developing knowledge of the different types of lock. Again, as mhole says, for warrant lockies picking is much preferred both because, with skill and practice, it is quicker than drilling, and because it doesn't destroy locks which the lockie would then have to replace (often within the same fee, as I understand it - and I do not do warrants; I'm not good enough or confident enough). For warrant lockies, the even more expensive (and generally more lock specific) pin and cam sets are also a godsend. They still need knowledge, skill and practice to use.

Don't start tampering with the wires unless you know what you are doing. I have not tampered with the wires on my ICL set and have opened several different types of lock. When I mentioned other shapes of wire I was thinking mainly of some locks that have internal warding. For locks without warding, and ignoring the problem of negotiating anti-pick defences, the method is really as you described - ie finding that you have to rotate the tension tool to around 12noon and then reach down to levers at 8-10ish is normal, not an unusual feature that makes the locks you're talking about unpickable by the ICL set. In my view (strictly as a non expert), I imagine it will be a lot more difficult for you to practice on your own with no prior training at all - I certainly would have found it very difficult.

[crusaderman]

Hi EmCee

Thanks again for your input. Much appreciated. Just to clear up one point tho. My "Trainer" did also have the group picking the locks by way of employing engineering scribes, and went to great lengths in helping us to identify most of the commonly used 5 levered locks. i.e. by colour, hardplate configuration and even curtain characteristics. Couldn't really fault his professionalism.

And so I take your point that there is a definite art to drilling any of these types of locks in the correct place and the ability to pick successfully by this method should not be underestimated. Indeed these will be my preferred method. (Just for the record, I do have a really good colour manual which both identifies and specifies drill- point positions for picking or "killing" for most common locks).

I'm not gonna touch the wires... but will try and persevere with the locks I've got. I do have a practice lock with a perspex cover, so will let you know how things go.

Thanks again to you and MHole

[EmCee]

I have no idea what picking by 'employing engineering scribes' means.

Destructive entry cannot be discussed in this area of the forum (please read the rules if you haven't already), so I have to be careful what I say and you should do likewise. I don't think it is helpful to you to think of drilling as a method of picking. Accurate drilling can be used to access an area of the lock rather than destroy anything inside, but drilling is drilling and is still destructive because the end result is a lock that should be replaced and a door that needs careful repair.

Lock id is essential but I would not think of the id manual as a picking guide. As already said, drilling can be a justifiable method for a locksmith but it would not be my preferred method.

I am a bit confused because if you have a practice lock with perspex cover you should be able to pick it open. I would caution against over-using the practice lock, though, because after initially helping in understanding what the pick is doing, there's a danger of it becoming counter-productive since you are picking while using your eyes to see what is happening and that isn't possible, obviously, with normal locks. It's difficult to explain without sounding pretentious but when I pick a lock open I am not actively thinking about it. I might be talking with someone or thinking about dinner...whatever...but at the same time another part of my mind (not quite sub-conscious) is 'seeing' inside the lock and working with my hands and the feedback from them. Once you've opened that practice lock by looking at what you're doing, then close your eyes and open it again and again.